Charles Cross

[The Rookie Detective]

In this photo of Deeming, taken in the mid 1880s, it looks like he is wearing an identical suit, including the medal/badge. Someone suggested earlier that it may be a badge for the Serial Killers Club?

I thought that was Bury and not Deeming.

I am sure I have seen this photo (or something similar) featuring William Bury and his wife.

I may be wrong but is someone able to confirm I am going bonkers and that there is no such photo of Bury, and that I have mixed it all up in my head?

haha!

[rjpalmer]

I thought that was Bury and not Deeming.

I am sure I have seen this photo (or something similar) featuring William Bury and his wife.

I may be wrong but is someone able to confirm I am going bonkers and that there is no such photo of Bury, and that I have mixed it all up in my head?

haha!

It's from the State Library in Melbourne and shows Deeming and his wife Marie James, c. 1880s

[Herlock Sholmes]

The problem is that if it’s correct that we are looking at a backyard behind Cross with a fence and if that’s a door on the left instead of the window certain ‘enthusiasts’ will be claiming it’s Cross re-visiting Hanbury Street and standing outside the rear of Cadosch’s house.

[The Rookie Detective]

It's from the State Library in Melbourne and shows Deeming and his wife Marie James, c. 1880s

Thank you for clarifying that for me, I knew I was going bonkers!

haha!

[Geddy2112]

I think you're onto something; I think I can see a post on either side of the gate, and latticework on the right-hand side of the photograph, peeking between the leaves.

I'm awaiting the next HoL video proclaiming growing runner beans or ivy proves you are a serial killer...

[rjpalmer]

I'm awaiting the next HoL video proclaiming growing runner beans or ivy proves you are a serial killer...

I see it is already being suggested that there is a coded message of Jack and the beanstalk.

I'm not immediately seeing a map with house numbering, but the 1911 census goes in this order

58 Leatherdale
56 Leatherdale
*24 Carlton Road (Lechmere)
26 Carlton Road (two households)
28 Carlton Road, etc.

What is presumably across the corner is

1 Leatherdale
22 Carlton Road

Ed might have more information, but from this it looks like he's spot on with No. 24 being on the SW corner. This was a grocer's shop in 1901.

Mildly interesting is that number 22 Carlton is Edward Elliott listed as a railway carman and he'd been living in the 'hood for decades, listed as a carman. Maybe a friend of Lechmere's and there is no nefarious reason for his "white flight" to Mile-End other than he had a friend there who recommended a house for rent in Doveton Street. Speculation, of course.

Anyhow, unless someone has better information, No. 56 appears to be the house to the west of him, he's wrapped around the corner, and No. 26 is his immediate neighbor to the south.

I'm getting some ribbing (no pun) for suggesting Lechmere suffered a mild deformity, but I'm not alone in thinking his ribcage is not quite normal in appearance. Perhaps I'm seeing things. But his weak shoulders don't suggest Schwartz's broad-shouldered man, and his upper thigh looks bandied and slender, accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

[Geddy2112]

...accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

It is rather a camp stance to say the least.

[Lewis C]

I see it is already being suggested that there is a coded message of Jack and the beanstalk.

I'm not immediately seeing a map with house numbering, but the 1911 census goes in this order

58 Leatherdale
56 Leatherdale
*24 Carlton Road (Lechmere)
26 Carlton Road (two households)
28 Carlton Road, etc.

What is presumably across the corner is

1 Leatherdale
22 Carlton Road

Ed might have more information, but from this it looks like he's spot on with No. 24 being on the SW corner. This was a grocer's shop in 1901.

Mildly interesting is that number 22 Carlton is Edward Elliott listed as a railway carman and he'd been living in the 'hood for decades, listed as a carman. Maybe a friend of Lechmere's and there is no nefarious reason for his "white flight" to Mile-End other than he had a friend there who recommended a house for rent in Doveton Street. Speculation, of course.

Anyhow, unless someone has better information, No. 56 appears to be the house to the west of him, he's wrapped around the corner, and No. 26 is his immediate neighbor to the south.

I'm getting some ribbing (no pun) for suggesting Lechmere suffered a mild deformity, but I'm not alone in thinking his ribcage is not quite normal in appearance. Perhaps I'm seeing things. But his weak shoulders don't suggest Schwartz's broad-shouldered man, and his upper thigh looks bandied and slender, accentuated by the effeminate way he is crossing his legs. Not that 'Jack' needed to be a giant killer.

Hi RJ,

I agree that it looks like there's an abnormal bulge in the middle of his chest. However, I don't think that anything about his body's condition when he was an old man tells us anything about what it would have looked like when he was much younger.

[rjpalmer]

Hi RJ,

I agree that it looks like there's an abnormal bulge in the middle of his chest. However, I don't think that anything about his body's condition when he was an old man tells us anything about what it would have looked like when he was much younger.

I can't quite agree, Lewis.

I'm merely speculating about what he looks like, and am not married to the idea, but true pectus carinatum is not an acquired deformity; it is genetic. It usually becomes noticeable in puberty or childhood. As the Royal Hospital in Melbourne writes, "there is overgrowth of the cartilage between the ribs and the sternum (breastbone), causing the middle of the chest to stick out."

Severe cases require surgery, but most people either live with it or wear a corrective brace on their chest.

Or course, I can't prove it, nor will we ever know unless Ed gets to work with pick and shovel. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'Burke and Hare' research after sundown!

[rjpalmer]

I came across this while trying to get more information on No. 56 Leatherdale Street.

CAL's son Albert Edward selling his bicycle in 1905. I can't recall if he's the lad who was throwing is coat over passing bicyclists.

[rjpalmer]

I don't know if I can fully support Herlock's claim that there has never been a multiple murderer who 'found' a body. It's not quite the same as the situation with Lechmere, but there have been cases of killers who have joined a search party for a missing girl, etc., and were the ones who 'found' the victim or the victim's clothes, etc. But like I say, that's not quite the same as what we are faced with here because they manipulate their seemingly 'heroic' efforts to appear more natural and explainable than simply finding a victim in a darkened street which would tend to raise unpleasant questions.

When the horrific Scottish reprobate Angus Sinclair was 16, he strangled a young girl inside a house. He then carried the girl outside and set her at the bottom of a flight of steps and waited inside or around a corner. Two women found the body and, of course, were quite alarmed. Sinclair then shows up, acts concerned and even offers to run down to the phone box and call an ambulance, which he did, saying 'a wee lass has fallen' or some such lie.

So, if we extend this analogy to Buck's Row, it's not Lechmere who is the murderer, but the next person at the scene--Robert Paul, or perhaps one of the neighbors or horse slaughterers or Mulshaw or Mulshaw's man in the next street. This also happened, I believe, in a murder by the New York killer Joel Rifkin--he showed up after a crowd had formed but took care not to be the first person at the scene.

[Geddy2112]

So, if we extend this analogy to Buck's Row, it's not Lechmere who is the murderer, but the next person at the scene--Robert Paul, or perhaps one of the neighbours or horse slaughterers or Malshaw or Mulshaw's man in the next street. This also happened, I believe, in a murder by the New York killer Joel Rifkin--he showed up after a crowd had formed but took care not to be the first person at the scene.

Also we must remember in true FBI fashion Paul did insert himself into the enquiry by making sure he gave his 'Remarkable Statement.' Stow did a HoL video addressing people voicing concerns that Paul could be the killer. He put the idea of him doing the deed, escaping around the block via Winthrop Street and reappearing into Bucks Row into the 'nutty column.' He did so of course because he thinks Lechmere is the killer and not because the proposition is ridiculous. He claims Robert Paul could not have murdered Polly and doubled back to appear behind Lechmere because he did not have the time. The problem is with very basic primary school maths he could done so with about 7 mins to spare. This would also address a few other issues Team Lechmere has...

1) He gave the time as 'exactly 3:45am' because he knew he'd have an alibi with PC Neil finding the body and him coming up from the rear. He did not factor in a third party like Lechmere would be there instead.
2) The reason he did not clap eyes on Lechmere when they were both in Bath Street or Bucks Row is because Paul was too busy going round the back of Bucks Row in Winthrop Street. Could have disposed of the weapon anywhere here.
3) He accompanied Lechmere to Mizen and allowed Lechmere to do all the talking thus not to incriminate himself or to deflect blame.
4) According to one report Robert Paul refused to prop up Polly... callous bastard!
5) Funnily enough one of the biggest Lechmere Theory red flags are the routes to work. Erm Hanbury Street was on the way to work for Robert Paul.
6) He gave the **** and bull story of it being a rough area to try and deflect blame. Was it that bad it was often described as dark and quiet or the fact he walked it six days a week.
7) Did Robert Paul have any friends or family he could have been visiting near the Berner Street area?
8) Robert Paul was a carman, did he deliver meat?

You get the picture... is it that far-fetched that it should be in the nutty column?

[Lewis C]

I can't quite agree, Lewis.

I'm merely speculating about what he looks like, and am not married to the idea, but true pectus carinatum is not an acquired deformity; it is genetic. It usually becomes noticeable in puberty or childhood. As the Royal Hospital in Melbourne writes, "there is overgrowth of the cartilage between the ribs and the sternum (breastbone), causing the middle of the chest to stick out."

Severe cases require surgery, but most people either live with it or wear a corrective brace on their chest.

Or course, I can't prove it, nor will we ever know unless Ed gets to work with pick and shovel. Nothing wrong with a bit of 'Burke and Hare' research after sundown!

So if that's the cause, age wouldn't be the cause of it. When you say you're speculating, do you mean that you're speculating about the cause? If so, then maybe it was caused by a condition he developed later.