So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel?

[caz]

I asked you a question before. How much was he able to do if he was intent on not presenting the police with obviously false information but wanted to keep paper readers out of the know as much as possible?

So far, I have seen no answer to that question.

Sorry, Fish, I'm still trying to catch up with some of the older posts to this thread.

I see what you are getting at here, but a better bet would have been not to come forward at all, knowing he'd find himself in this unenviable and complex situation you describe above, of trying to keep his identity as the finder of a dead prostitute out of the public domain, while at the same time giving the authorities no reason to question the identifying details he chose to give out. PC Mizen had only seen him briefly, before daylight, and Robert Paul had only described him in the newspaper as 'a man', while making his feelings about the police all too clear. How would anyone have had a prayer of tracking down Lechmere again, let alone confirmed he was the same man? In the vanishingly unlikely event that he came face to face with Mizen and a suddenly co-operative Paul, who both claimed to recognise him, he had only to sport his best psychopath hat and plead ignorance - a clear case of mistaken identity. Failing that, he'd only have been guilty of the same sin as his identifier Robert Paul - not coming forward voluntarily!

You say "Fish's argument that Lechmere would not have been trying to fool the police in this way [because it wouldn't have worked had they checked - obviously] doesn't wash, because the police would not have known this, and he could hardly have explained who he was trying to fool and why".

What are you on about? The police would not have known what? That it would not have worked if they checked?

You may have strained yourself.

If the police had checked with Pickfords, and if there was no carman named Cross on their books, it wouldn't have mattered who Lechmere had or hadn't set out to deceive - the police or anyone else - or why. The deception itself would be what interested the police. That was my point.

I thought you had grasped why setting out to deceive the police in this way would have failed if a routine check had revealed his name as Lechmere, and I thought this was why you claimed the deception was not aimed at the police, but at certain people close to him, who might become suspicious if they saw his real name in the papers.

I really don't see what difference it makes either way. If the police had made enquiries and discovered his real name, which would have been with the assistance of Pickfords or Mrs Lechmere, at the addresses he had provided, the cat would have been out of the bag anyway - unless you wish to refine your argument again and claim the name deception was aimed at certain people other than the police; other than his wife; other than anyone at Pickfords.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

You also said "at the relevant times". We have no certainty whatsoever that this was the case in all but the Nichols murder.

So you understood that you were wrong about the "some certainty" matter? Good! As for the hours, all we can say is that it seems that a passage through the area at 3-4 Am seems to come close to the probable TOD:s of Tabram, Chapman and Kelly, as given by Killeen, Phillips and the "Murder" cry.

It is another matter that Lechmere could have had these days off or that he could have started working in the afternoon - he MAY have. But on the surface of things, saying that he seems to fit the bill roughly is no overstatement.

You should not regard it as a backdraw that we quite possibly can place him in the area at the correct hours. It is instead an advantage. After all, we ARE trying to solve the case, are we not?

Could it be that we are trying NOT to have the case solved?

[Sam Flynn]

No absolute certainty but SOME certainty, as I said - there were no logical alternative routes, and he would reasonably work on weekdays. That amounts to some certainty that he passed in near vicinity of or directly by the murder sites in the Spitalfields area.

You also said "at the relevant times". We have no certainty whatsoever that this was the case in all but the Nichols murder.

[Fisherman]

caz: If Lechmere was the killer, then he was the killer. I think we gathered that much a million posts ago, Fishy.

You see, this is the quality of your criticism - spiteful misrepresentations, with a winking smiley added. Itīs sad.

The problem is, you have to presume he was the killer, in order to conclude that he cunningly came up with Mizen's second PC [Lechmere himself emphatically denying that he had said anything of the kind, on the reasonable and verifiable grounds that he had seen no policeman in Buck's Row, which was why he and Paul headed off to collar the first PC they did see - Mizen], and was therefore manipulating the situation, like a typical psychopath, in order not to be detained and possibly searched, or asked for any identifying details [which he volunteered later anyway ] - and this argues for him being the killer you had to presume he was in the first place before the charm could be wound up. In the words of the sublime Sinatra, it's witchcraft.

Of course there is a link between him likely being the k iller and him lying to Mizen. Does that surprise you?
The problem YOU are having is that you have to presume that Mizen misheard Lechmere or lied about it after wards in order to present an innocent carman, Caz.
So we all have our problems, donīt we?
An added problem on your behalf is that it always was a more complex matter to believe in a mishearing than in a correct hearing, and it was always less likely that a PC would lie than a member of the public. In no case is that an unsurmountable obstacle, but it is a worse presumption in both cases. And so it may be you who employ witchcraft, not me. And witches ARE women, are they not? Or is that misogynistic to say?

I put it to you that if Lechmere really had told PC Mizen that a policeman wanted him in Buck's Row, he would not have been lying; he would have been making a prediction, which would shortly come true. Was he a psychic as well as a psychopath?

You tell me. It is at any rate a very odd thing to do, to surmise that a PC will be in place at the very moment you speak to a colleague of his, twohundred and fifty yards away. So I put it to you that you are discarding the likely explanation for an unlikely one.

Mizen walks off to Buck's Row and hey presto! There's the policeman predicted by Lechmere, and lo and behold! PC Neil immediately has an errand for him to run - he is sent for an ambulance. So just as he claims the carman told him, there was indeed a second PC who wanted him in Buck's Row. Lechmere didn't invent him at all. Nor do I entertain the idea that Charlie Cross the carman was a clairvoyant.

Sorry, but Lechmere DID invent the PC if he spoke of him - because he was NOT there as he and Paul left the site. If you had said "predicted" you would have been less wrong, but wrong nevertheless since Lechmere did not say that he THOUGHT that there was a PC in place or on his way.

The only rational conclusion I can come to is that PC Mizen was only human and doing what so many of us do - projecting backwards from actual events: PC Neil in Buck's Row, wanting him to go for the ambulance - to the conversation that initiated them, and getting the message slightly wrong while trying to marry the two.

Why is it an irrational explanation that Lechmere was the killer and lied about it, Caz? Exactly how is that "irrational"? You are misunderstading yourself - the only explanation you LIKE to think of is that Mizen got it wrong, thatīs how you are reasoning.

This may have been a simple and understandable mistake on Mizen's part, but it also served to cover his arse if he failed to report his encounter with the carmen [after failing to take any details from either] until Robert Paul's account of it appeared in the newspaper.

No, it would not be a simple mistake, it would be a rather complex one, and it would be very strange if he came up with the exact phrasing that would take the carmen past himself, no questions asked. It would furthermore not be something he construed in retrospect, since if he did NOT hear it said from the outset, he would not let Lechmere and Paul pass. Unless he was the complete deaf twit you WANT him to be. And NEED him to be. And HOPE that he is.
How about he had no problems hearing exactly what he was told, and how about that is the reason he did not have to ask twice, and maybe it explains why he let the carmen pass without even taking their names? Meaning that things are exactly what they seem to be?

[Fisherman]

We have no certainty in that assumption at all.

No absolute certainty but SOME certainty, as I said - there were no logical alternative routes, and he would reasonably work on weekdays. That amounts to some certainty that he passed in near vicinity of or directly by the murder sites in the Spitalfields area.

Gee, Gareth - he DOES make you very nervous, does he not?

[caz]

And if the Ripper was a psychopath, then it applies that if - IF! - Lechmere was the killer, then he must have been a psychopath. The actions from the murder night and the inquest are certainly totally in line with the suggestion, for example the invention of the second PC, something he would have had minutes only to concoct on his feet - if he was the killer.

If Lechmere was the killer, then he was the killer. I think we gathered that much a million posts ago, Fishy.

The problem is, you have to presume he was the killer, in order to conclude that he cunningly came up with Mizen's second PC [Lechmere himself emphatically denying that he had said anything of the kind, on the reasonable and verifiable grounds that he had seen no policeman in Buck's Row, which was why he and Paul headed off to collar the first PC they did see - Mizen], and was therefore manipulating the situation, like a typical psychopath, in order not to be detained and possibly searched, or asked for any identifying details [which he volunteered later anyway ] - and this argues for him being the killer you had to presume he was in the first place before the charm could be wound up. In the words of the sublime Sinatra, it's witchcraft.

I put it to you that if Lechmere really had told PC Mizen that a policeman wanted him in Buck's Row, he would not have been lying; he would have been making a prediction, which would shortly come true. Was he a psychic as well as a psychopath?

Mizen walks off to Buck's Row and hey presto! There's the policeman predicted by Lechmere, and lo and behold! PC Neil immediately has an errand for him to run - he is sent for an ambulance. So just as he claims the carman told him, there was indeed a second PC who wanted him in Buck's Row. Lechmere didn't invent him at all. Nor do I entertain the idea that Charlie Cross the carman was a clairvoyant.

The only rational conclusion I can come to is that PC Mizen was only human and doing what so many of us do - projecting backwards from actual events: PC Neil in Buck's Row, wanting him to go for the ambulance - to the conversation that initiated them, and getting the message slightly wrong while trying to marry the two.

This may have been a simple and understandable mistake on Mizen's part, but it also served to cover his arse if he failed to report his encounter with the carmen [after failing to take any details from either] until Robert Paul's account of it appeared in the newspaper.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sam Flynn]

We know where his working trek took him, and so we may with some certainty assume that he at the very least passed close to other murder sites at the relevant hours.

We have no certainty in that assumption at all.

[Fisherman]

Not squeaky clean though, was he?

Lechmere had a stable employment of 20 years at Pickford's. No dismissals with which to cast a shadow over, am I right?

There might well be skeletons rattling around in Mr Lechmere's closet, but until you coax them out, you are reduced to an argument from ignorance.

I doubt that anybody is "squeaky clean", Harry - most people will have some little unwanted waste on their CV:s. And I never suggested that any of the examples I post were "squeaky clean" - although people like Shipman and Williams did not have any rap sheets, it is not unreasonable to assume that they had perpetrated acts that are not in accordance with the overall idea of a good society.

The point I am trying to get across is another one - that people can SEEM to have a squeaky clean background without actually having that.

There may well be skeletons in the Lechmere closet, just as you say. It is essential to understand that. We are too far removed from the 1880:s to have any chance to find out about it, though, and asking me to coax out examples of it is therefore not a reasonable thing to do. Then again, it is not necessary to do so to make a case for Lechmere as the killer. Contrary to all other suspects, we can point to anomalies in his case that are directly linked to one of the Ripper deeds, and so we have enough to point a finger at him as it is.

The idea that I would need examples of other nefarious matters is much the same as the demand to prove that Lechmere was present at other murder site than the Nichols one before he can become a credible killer - it would actually have him convicted in two seconds flat if we had that evidence and that would be a good thing. But it is not necessary at all to provide him with the status of a prime suspect - the only one, going on practical evidence.

We know where his working trek took him, and so we may with some certainty assume that he at the very least passed close to other murder sites at the relevant hours. Thatīs not good enough for those who cannot stand the idea of the carman being the killer, but it is good enough for any rationally reasoning student of the case to point a very grave finger in his direction. For the rest, it seems to be used as a convenient way out of the obvious.

[Harry D]

Apparently, Chikatilo was not legally accused (which was the point I made), he was instead fired, and so it would seem there was no criminal record on his account. Regardless, you may appreciate that the point I was making was that there are serial killers who have no criminal rap sheets?

Not squeaky clean though, was he?

Lechmere had a stable employment of 20 years at Pickford's. No dismissals with which to cast a shadow over, am I right?

There might well be skeletons rattling around in Mr Lechmere's closet, but until you coax them out, you are reduced to an argument from ignorance.

[Fisherman]

Wasn't Chikatilo fired from his teaching job for touching up students?

From Wikipedia:

In May 1973, Chikatilo committed his first known sexual assault upon one of his pupils. In this incident, he swam towards a 15-year-old girl and groped her breasts and genitals, ejaculating as the girl struggled against his grasp. Months later, Chikatilo sexually assaulted another teenage girl whom he had locked in his classroom.[40] He was not disciplined for either of these incidents,[41] or for the occasions in which fellow teachers observed Chikatilo fondling himself in the presence of his students. One of Chikatilo's duties at this school was ensuring his students who boarded at the school were present in their dormitories in the evenings; on several occasions, he is known to have entered the girls' dormitory in the hope of seeing them undressed.[42]

In response to the increasing number of complaints lodged against him by his students, the director of the school summoned Chikatilo to a formal meeting and informed him he should resign voluntarily, or be fired. Chikatilo left his employment discreetly and found another job as a teacher at another school in Novoshakhtinsk in January 1974. He lost this job as a result of staff cutbacks in September 1978, before finding another teaching position in Shakhty.[43]

Chikatilo's career as a teacher ended in March 1981 following several complaints of child molestation against pupils of both sexes.[44] The same month, he began a job as a supply clerk for a factory based in Rostov which produced construction materials.[45] This job required Chikatilo to travel extensively across much of the Soviet Union to either physically purchase the raw materials required to fulfill production quotas, or to negotiate supply contracts.

Apparently, Chikatilo was not legally accused (which was the point I made), he was instead fired, and so it would seem there was no criminal record on his account. Regardless, you may appreciate that the point I was making was that there are serial killers who have no criminal rap sheets?

Also, if we look at him from a Lechmere perspective, how many people would remember Chikatilos messing with the students after 130 years if he had remained undisclosed as a killer? Compare, if you will, with Druitt, who was dismissed as a teacher too - do we know why, Harry? And in Druittīs case, there WAS suspicion, leading to an intense scrutiny. What if that suspicion had not been there, how much would we know today about his dismissal?

[Harry D]

None - that we know of. Then again, we knew of no crimes on account of Chikatilo, of Armstrong, of Edwards, of Yates before they were revealed as serial killers.

Wasn't Chikatilo fired from his teaching job for touching up students?

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish. From wiki:

"On 5 March 1976, Peter Sutcliffe was dismissed for the theft of used tyres. He was unemployed until October 1976..."

Pete doesn't quite sound like a model employee, after all.

Like I said, Fish, once the psychologists know these guys are killers, that's all we ever hear about. I imagine most of these blighters were employees From Hell...but finding reliable information about their day-to-day lives is not always easy considering the focus is always on their sensational and disgusting crimes.

There are others who have a clean bill, though. And the problem with citing how Sutcliffe was dismissed for theft is that we have him so close in time, and because he was revealed as a serial killer, he could be - and WAS - scrutinized by his contemporaries and everything he had ever said and done that seemed in any way out of order would be remembered. Not so with Lechmere! He could have been involved in all sorts of bad businesses, and it could have been lost to the river of time a long time ago.
It would seem that Sutcliffe was let go, and that there was no legal record of it - if he was not a serial killer, who would have remembered it 130 years after the theft?

Lechmere could equally have been somebody of whom nothing nefarious at all was known during his lifetime, a grey man, a Joel Rifkin, if you like. Some of these men are truly meek on the surface, Rifkin, Geen, Kroll...

I keep saying that statistical arguments like "most serial killers have a rap sheet" is unapplicable in this discussion, and I think that is a very important point to make. Much as it is true, it is also true that SOMEBODY killed the C5, and in that context, a man who was found alone with one of the victims at a time tnat is consistent with being her killer MUST be looked long and hard at. The statistical arguments will apply less and less to such a character the more things there are that do not sound right, and there are such matters aplenty in Lechmereīs case. Once we take heed of that, we owe it to ourselves not to trip over arguments like "he seems such a nice guy".

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: You know how much I hate psychobabble, so I'd be the last to turn punctuality, reliability and devotion to duty (which probably characterised Cross's career) into an indicator of saintliness.

You know how much I hate it when people turn lofty and unsupportable suppositions into facts, wo Iīd be the last to accept that Lechmere must have been about punctuality, reliability and devotion to duty any more than Bonin, Eyler, Sutcliffe and Jasperson.

Nothing wrong with statistical arguments when properly applied.

And everything wrong with statistical arguments when improperly applied. Like for example when we say that since most people are good eggs, Lechmere will never have been a bad one. Thatīs statistics at itīs most pathetic.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Fish. From wiki:

"On 5 March 1976, Peter Sutcliffe was dismissed for the theft of used tyres. He was unemployed until October 1976..."

Pete doesn't quite sound like a model employee, after all.

Like I said, Fish, once the psychologists know these guys are killers, that's all we ever hear about. I imagine most of these blighters were employees From Hell...but finding reliable information about their day-to-day lives is not always easy considering the focus is always on their sensational and disgusting crimes.

[Sam Flynn]

Meaning that the employers of Sutcliffe, Jasperson, Eyler, Bonin and the rest of the highway killers who hung on to their jobs for many years also thought that these men did their job well. As did Russell Williams, as did Gary Ridgway, as did Dennis Nilsen, as did...

Can you see how this point is of no value at all? It is more of the "he seems to have been a good guy" argument that is totally useless in the discussion about serial killers.

You know how much I hate psychobabble, so I'd be the last to turn punctuality, reliability and devotion to duty (which probably characterised Cross's career) into an indicator of saintliness.

Itīs the statistical argument all over again and it must be disregarded.

Nothing wrong with statistical arguments when properly applied.