So if you live in Bethnal Green, you wonīt kill in Whitechapel?

[Batman]

A rot. As expected. Clever stuff like: "A coroner's legal decision legally overrules that of a doctor."

As if the coroners legal implications somehow gives him superior medical insights.

Thatīs just stupid.

That's because you don't understand what you are talking about. A coroner is a legal body, not a scientific one, that legally rules over a cause of death, by considering ALL the evidence and NOT just some of it. That means taking science, witness testimony, and the facts before him. If an inquest is held, then a jury then decides on the final verdict.

You are conflating scientific findings (medical examinations) with the court's overall decisions for which there are mechanisms, legally, to challenge such decisions, which the coroner can even do themselves, when new facts come to light. They might be slow to do this or quick or legal matters mean it never happens. Science is different. Science always considers new data and new facts and amends accordingly. Baxter caught up with the science after Chapman and revised Nichols, which was supported by Bond.

You bang on about how it is impossible for a killer to change MO and signature - without being able to prove that the neck cutting was a signature at all.

Neck cutting is not a JtR signature and never was. It is MO. A means to an end. Signature is what gets them the emotional satisfaction.

Case in hand. Neck was cut with Stride but emotional satisfaction not achieved. No signature.

What you are claiming is that Nichols MO was to be stabbed and mutilated around her lower abdomen and the signature was her neck slit. This was then reversed for all the others.

So what you are left with is a change of MO - and all out here are well aware that killers can change their MO:s.
You should listen to that guy who made the claim that a killer can go from eviscerating to poisoning! Now THAT is why I call an open mind - so open that it may have spilled out a siginificant amount of sense...

No, you have this very wrong. This isn't about changing MO and signature. That can happen and does with experimentation.

You have swapping MO and Signature. A very different thing.

[Fisherman]

Throat cutting. I'm not going to let you get away with spreading the overgeneralised, and Torso-Ripper-friendly, meme of "neck cutting", whether you're doing it on purpose or not.

Seeing as I am not going to let you try to sweep the similarity with the torso deeds under the carpet, it seems we may be here for quite some time:

Neck cutting.

[Fisherman]

caz: He was only in Buck's Row because he was on his way to work, Fish. In fact, your entire geographical argument is based on this very point - his legitimate reason for being there at all and seeing the woman lying tarpaulin-like in the street! How is that not work-related? If he had not been going to work that morning, he'd have been scratching around for a sound reason for walking along Buck's Row, wouldn't he?

Is thinking about going to work work-related? Is laying out your working clothes the evening before work work-related?
The whole concept of somebody presenting himself the to the police as Cross when speaking about "work-related" matters but as Lechmere when discussing private matters sound bonkers to me. No matter where we place his working trek.


Maybe my point didn't 'come out very well' because you replied before absorbing it. How was it less of a risk for a killer to adopt a surname while posing as a witness at his own crime scene, which he never used in any other context? How would that have gone down with the cops, had they used the other details he volunteered to check if he was who he said he was? Like a bucket of cold sick I'd have thought. At the very least they would have demanded a very good explanation for wasting their time and resources in this way, looking for a non-existent Charles Cross. That would have been enough to wonder what else he had tried to conceal about himself. Not very smart.

This is the one question we need to ask ourselves:

If Charles Lechmere wanted to stay incognito to as many readers of the papers as possible, but at the same time feared that the police may pay him a visit to check him out, how could he optimize this?

Could he for example give a false address and working place to the police? A name that he had no connection to?

Once he had spoken to the police, that would decide how much of an effort he could make at the inquest to stay incognito.

How much was that? What could he say without having the coppers go "A-HAH!"?

Give it some afterthought, Caz. If you cannot work it out, donīt be shy to ask.

It is THIS that governs how "smart" he could be, what kind of learoom he had. Once you understand this, you may also understand who was the smart one back then, and who is the dumb one today.

[Sam Flynn]

You bang on about how it is impossible for a killer to change MO and signature - without being able to prove that the neck cutting was a signature at all.

Throat cutting. I'm not going to let you get away with spreading the overgeneralised, and Torso-Ripper-friendly, meme of "neck cutting", whether you're doing it on purpose or not.

[Batman]

I have made no such claims. I just voiced my opinions about Baxter.

You are suggesting Baxter got it wrong when he revised that Llewellyn had probably gotten it wrong. The Coroner suggested that the way Chapman had been murdered, neck first, was the better explanation for Nichols.

So that's your opinion, which is aligned with Fisherman's MO/Signature swapping serial killer.

It seems to me you are now backing out of this rapidly. I don't blame you for not following Fisherman down that path. It is obviously going to be catastrophic for his claims because it's an MO/Signature swapping serial killer who... get this... hangs around for witnesses to show up so he can call them over to look at his work.

Now perhaps you can explain how you can give advice about using the latest peer reviewed data when you yourself cut and paste from years old Casebook pages.

Why do you call it peer-reviewed? It isn't. So what if I got some things using this website? Doesn't change the fact that it collapses this idea that a coroner's decision is immutable given coroners themselves can order exhumations which can and do change such decisions. As is the case with Chapman's wives.

[Fisherman]

A coroner's legal decision legally overrules that of a doctor. It is a jury that returns verdicts, not doctors. Baxter is considering ALL of the medical evidence and not just some of it because he is not suspect driven and new information has come forward.




There is nothing weird about Bond's claims. Only some people who see a chamise when in fact what they are seeing are bed sheets. MJK is indeed naked.

Bond's meta-analysis is the best analysis at the time of the C5 murders and helped produce a profile which indicated JtR isn't going to look like the ghoul some were depicting him as. Bond as a doctor has more information and data than anyone had at the time, besides Anderson and the other lead investigators.



You are the one who thinks Cross is JtR, not I. I noted I get plenty of things wrong, but admit them, and can show evidence on here where I do.



Calling me a liar is not going to help you when you are embattled trying to sell people this newfangled idea that Cross switched his MO and Signaturing after Nichols.



That's what Bond did. You reject that.



Bond is saying neck first for Nichols. This is with more data than Llewellyn had.




That's not the claim and you know it.

You rejected the following, remember...



You said...


Saying No to that tells me you rejected it.

All this because you think blood can be seen in the dark.

A rot. As expected. Clever stuff like: "A coroner's legal decision legally overrules that of a doctor."

As if the coroners legal implications somehow gives him superior medical insights.

Thatīs just stupid.

You bang on about how it is impossible for a killer to change MO and signature - without being able to prove that the neck cutting was a signature at all. So what you are left with is a change of MO - and all out here are well aware that killers can change their MO:s.
You should listen to that guy who made the claim that a killer can go from eviscerating to poisoning! Now THAT is why I call an open mind - so open that it may have spilled out a siginificant amount of sense...

[Abby Normal]

Yes, Abby, because none of the above could possibly have put two and two together and twigged that Charles Allen Cross, Pickfords carman, who discovered a murdered prostitute in Buck's Row, was actually their hubby/family member/workmate, known only to them as Charles Allen Lechmere, Pickfords carman, who would have been walking that way to work, at the same hour of the morning.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
well if hes more commonly used lechmere in his daily life and with the people who knew him its possible he was trying to do that. or if not guilty to just keep the more common name out of it. God knows if i had a different name I could have used all the time Ive gotten in trouble I would have used it. lol.

[caz]

So he was Cross with the authorities if the matter was work-related? But how is it workrelated in Bucks Row. He was not at work, was he? And is it not a totally weird and impractical thing? "Letīs see now, I had dinner that I brought home from work, so am I Lechmere or Cross eating it?"

He was only in Buck's Row because he was on his way to work, Fish. In fact, your entire geographical argument is based on this very point - his legitimate reason for being there at all and seeing the woman lying tarpaulin-like in the street! How is that not work-related? If he had not been going to work that morning, he'd have been scratching around for a sound reason for walking along Buck's Row, wouldn't he?

If anything it should be the other way round for anyone who believes he only adopted the name Cross in connection with the murder in Buck's Row, and was known as Lechmere in every other context.

Maybe you thought too long and deep about that, Caz. It didnīt come out very well.

Better than not thinking at all, and shooting yourself in the foot by questioning your own argument that his presence in Buck's Row was excusable because it was - er - work-related.

Maybe my point didn't 'come out very well' because you replied before absorbing it. How was it less of a risk for a killer to adopt a surname while posing as a witness at his own crime scene, which he never used in any other context? How would that have gone down with the cops, had they used the other details he volunteered to check if he was who he said he was? Like a bucket of cold sick I'd have thought. At the very least they would have demanded a very good explanation for wasting their time and resources in this way, looking for a non-existent Charles Cross. That would have been enough to wonder what else he had tried to conceal about himself. Not very smart.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Yes, the guy the Lechmerians approached and advised on the case happens to agree with their assessment. What are the odds?



Well, no. Kosminski was named by several senior officials of the time, and supposedly got away with the murders on a technicality. That's not conjecture, those are first-hand reports from contemporary policemen. Lechmere was never treated as a suspect (for good reason). He was among the many witnesses who stepped into the spotlight and faded back into anonymity.

on a technicality? LOL! more like the bloviating of a prejudiced blow hard who even Churchill recognized as a braggart. and many years after the fact trying to make himself appear better at that.

[Batman]

Batman: You mean like how you omit Bond agreeing with Baxter that all the C5 had their throats cut first.

No, I mean like promoting Baxter in one instance as more reliable than a medico, only to in the next breath not warrant him any trust at all.

A coroner's legal decision legally overrules that of a doctor. It is a jury that returns verdicts, not doctors. Baxter is considering ALL of the medical evidence and not just some of it because he is not suspect driven and new information has come forward.

As for omitting, maybe we need to omit that Bond never saw and examined Nicholsī body? And maybe we need to omit to mention how Bond said a few things that were a tad weird about the victims?

There is nothing weird about Bond's claims. Only some people who see a chamise when in fact what they are seeing are bed sheets. MJK is indeed naked.

Bond's meta-analysis is the best analysis at the time of the C5 murders and helped produce a profile which indicated JtR isn't going to look like the ghoul some were depicting him as. Bond as a doctor has more information and data than anyone had at the time, besides Anderson and the other lead investigators.

As we can see your idea that JtR is swapping MO with Signature is purely suspect driven with a disregard for the Coroners ability to overrule a finding with subsequent findings.

Yes, thatīs the way to go - call me purely suspect driven and try to discard everything I say as useless. Way to go, Batman! And letīs forget about what Gary pointed out a few posts back - how you get things wrong over and over again.

You are the one who thinks Cross is JtR, not I. I noted I get plenty of things wrong, but admit them, and can show evidence on here where I do.

Since I have not commented on any amendments at all, I think you are lying by now. Plus you are elevating the idea that Nichols neck was cut first to an amendment, forgetting that this "amendment" was the brain child of a coroner that was in conflict with the medical opinion given by the doctor who actually examined the body.

Calling me a liar is not going to help you when you are embattled trying to sell people this newfangled idea that Cross switched his MO and Signaturing after Nichols.

"We"? You need a cold shower, Batman. If Bond and/or other medicos had examined Llewellyn and conclusively said that there could be no doubt that the neck came first, I would say thank you very much and accept it.

That's what Bond did. You reject that.

But I am not ready to get my knickers in a twist over how Bond made a guess that he did not base on having seen and examined Nichols.
In the end, what Bond said was " All the circumstances surrounding the murders lead me to form the opinion that the women must have been lying down when murdered and in every case the throat was first cut."
So he commented on the circumstances surrounding the murders, and not on the medical specifics in the Nichols case.
[/COLOR]

Bond is saying neck first for Nichols. This is with more data than Llewellyn had.

If your claims were true there would be no exhumations.

If Llewellyn said that Nichols abdomen was cut first, there would be no exhumations?

I see.

That's not the claim and you know it.

You rejected the following, remember...

Batman: They most certainly can and one function of the Coroner is to legally recognize the need to amend previous findings when new information arrives.

This can happen in a series of events, such as with disease, epidemics or a series of violent homicides.

It is exactly this sort of series in which a serial offender is at large that can undergo such amendments the more we learn.

A meta-review can and does revise/amend the content it is reviewing.

This most certainly applies the most to historical situations.

You said...

Fisherman:
No, the medical implications can never change.

Saying No to that tells me you rejected it.

All this because you think blood can be seen in the dark.

[Fisherman]

Yes, Abby, because none of the above could possibly have put two and two together and twigged that Charles Allen Cross, Pickfords carman, who discovered a murdered prostitute in Buck's Row, was actually their hubby/family member/workmate, known only to them as Charles Allen Lechmere, Pickfords carman, who would have been walking that way to work, at the same hour of the morning.

Love,

Caz
X

It wouldnīt be a given, no. Many may not have known that he walked Bucks Row, he had only just moved to hos new lodgings. And the name came in many shades, George Cross, Charles Allan Cross, Charles Allen Cross etc. There were hundreds of carmen at Pickfords.
And in the end, it is not all about how efficient it was, but instead about why the effort was made.

[Fisherman]

Harry D: Yes, the guy the Lechmerians approached and advised on the case happens to agree with their assessment. What are the odds?

It was Blink Films who approached Griffiths. I myself expressed a wish to have a murder squad detective appearing and looking at the case, and I voiced how I did not want him to be a ripperologist or have a deep interest in the case.
So Griffiths was not approached by "the Lechmereians" at all. He was in all probability contacted by Sam Taplin, who entered the production with no view of his own about who was the killer and left it cinvinced that we had found the Ripper.
Iīm sorry, but now matter how you twist and turn things, it remains that Grigīffiths is an authority and expert on matters like these, and his word carries great weight.
This is mirrored in your reoccurring efforts to nullify him. It it had been my businessman uncle who had voiced what Griffiths voiced, you would care a iot, but instead go ahead with the classical "what does HE know" and sneer at him.
Canīt do that with Griffiths, eh?


Well, no. Kosminski was named by several senior officials of the time, and supposedly got away with the murders on a technicality. That's not conjecture, those are first-hand reports from contemporary policemen. Lechmere was never treated as a suspect (for good reason). He was among the many witnesses who stepped into the spotlight and faded back into anonymity.

A Kosminski (whether it was Aaron is up for discussion, and some experts think he was interchanged with "David Cohen") was mentioned by some police bigwigs. And it was suggested that he had participated in an identification. None of this is verified or verifiable, and so all we pile up on his back is conjecture.

There is no way you can win, Harry. The sooner you realize that, the better and less space-consuming.

[caz]

I agree Fish
and perhaps to keep his more commonly used name out of the papers might have been done (if guilty) to perhaps keep it from wife, family members, friends, cowrkers etc. who might have put two and two together if they had seen or suspected anything suspicious from him.

Yes, Abby, because none of the above could possibly have put two and two together and twigged that Charles Allen Cross, Pickfords carman, who discovered a murdered prostitute in Buck's Row, was actually their hubby/family member/workmate, known only to them as Charles Allen Lechmere, Pickfords carman, who would have been walking that way to work, at the same hour of the morning.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

caz: But sadly Lechmere has no way to defend himself and give the jury - us - his explanation, so we can't judge whether it's a sound or unsound one.

Precisely. That is why it also applies that he is not around to confess.

Added to this is the very real possibility that the same Pickfords carman was involved a dozen years earlier, in the collision which caused the accidental death of a child, and called himself Cross on that occasion, for reasons we have no way of knowing, but which can't reasonably be interpreted as sinister or suspicious.

A/ It is possible it was our man, but no certainty. If there was a Charlie Cross among his coworkers, it could provide him with a very interesting possibility to use that alias, for example. And of course it can be interpreted as something less than innocent if he gave an alias. It always can, it is only a question if we can see it or not.

So unless it can be ascertained that this Charles Cross was definitely not the Buck's Row witness, I would have to give Lechmere the benefit of the doubt, that his reasons were similar on both occasions, and not connected to any criminality on his part.

No, you would not have to do that - you choose to do so. It is up to each of us to make our own choice on this point, and it remains an anomaly that he used Cross over Lechmere, an anomaly that will not go away.

One obvious possibility is that he had been known as Charlie Cross at Pickfords from day one, so naturally used that name for both work-related incidents.

So he was Cross with the authorities if the matter was work-related? But how is it workrelated in Bucks Row. He was not at work, was he? And is it not a totally weird and impractical thing? "Letīs see now, I had dinner that I brought home from work, so am I Lechmere or Cross eating it?"

Also plausible is that he didn't want the Lechmere name to be connected with such distressing events. Why would he not have tried to spare Mrs Lechmere and the Lechmere offspring from local and playground gossip, following his discovery of a murdered prostitute on his route to work, if using the name Cross could have helped?

Itīs a possibility. As is the sinister version. If I was to check which is the more likely thing, I would try and see if there are any signs of him duping the police and/or having a working trek that took him close to the victims.

Again, I have to ask exactly what Lechmere would have thought to gain, by not revealing that name to the authorities, had he been the killer?

No, you donīt have to do that at all. You only need to go back and read my answer on dozens of threads, itīs the same answer over and over again.

How would that have helped protect him from suspicion, in the event of a routine check to confirm his identity, using the other details he had freely provided?

Check the old threads! It IS there. Clue: It was not about avoiding police suspicion.

We can only speculate what his reasoning would have been if guilty, but there is no evidence whatsoever that using the name Lechmere would have been the more risky option.

And no evidence whatsoever that it could not have been.

If anything it should be the other way round for anyone who believes he only adopted the name Cross in connection with the murder in Buck's Row, and was known as Lechmere in every other context.

Maybe you thought too long and deep about that, Caz. It didnīt come out very well.

[Harry D]

Who says I am relying uncritically on experts? I am saying that Griffiths thoughts are in line with my own thinking, and so it is him who agrees with me, itīs not the other way around.

Yes, the guy the Lechmerians approached and advised on the case happens to agree with their assessment. What are the odds?

Kosminski is about conjecture, while Lechmere is about facts..

Well, no. Kosminski was named by several senior officials of the time, and supposedly got away with the murders on a technicality. That's not conjecture, those are first-hand reports from contemporary policemen. Lechmere was never treated as a suspect (for good reason). He was among the many witnesses who stepped into the spotlight and faded back into anonymity.