Deadly occupations and serial murder

[John G]

The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.

It's an interesting subject matter, Abby, and one that the eminent criminologist Professor David Wilson has written about. However, I'm struggling to see what relevance it has to Lechmere who, for example, was not a butcher. He did drive a horse and cart, but I cannot see how that mode of transport remotely resembles a modern motor vehicle, let alone a truck.

[Abby Normal]

Very little to add to what has already been posted.

However I will just sumerise what other have said.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

Steve

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

[Henry Flower]

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.



while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.



well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.



pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.




somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

Wow, Ab - please do let me know what was not sensible in my response to Fish's ideas. You know, since you're apparently the arbiter!

My reaction wasn't kneejerk, and neither do I have any animus towards Christer or the Lechmere theory. I didn't need to ruminate because these are issues most of us have thought about or read about. Lechmere's profession was absent the three factors that make long distance lorry drivers such good serialist material: absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sorry you thought it unreasonable.

[Abby Normal]

Wow, Ab - please do let me know what was not sensible in my response to Fish's ideas. You know, since you're apparently the arbiter!

My reaction wasn't kneejerk, and neither do I have any animus towards Christer or the Lechmere theory. I didn't need to ruminate because these are issues most of us have thought about or read about. Lechmere's profession was absent the three factors that make long distance lorry drivers such good serialist material: absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sorry you thought it unreasonable.

sorry Henry-I must have missed it. Ill go back and check it out.

[Sam Flynn]

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

Kudos to Fish for posting them - I'm sure they'll make interesting reading - but ultimately it's what those occupations involve that's important in this context. When we examine what's involved, then the comparisons don't really stand up to much scrutiny.

Lechmere was a delivery man, not a butcher. I don't even think it's been satisfactorily proven that he actually delivered meat with any regularity - or at all. Not that doing so would have given him any experience of butchery, unlike those serial killers, such as Dennis Nilsen or JW Gacey, who had some butchery experience, or at least kitchen skills.

Also, the analogy between truck drivers and Lechmere's job as a carman is moot because truck-driving killers typically use their vehicles to kill safely away from home, using their trucks to pick up their victims and for dumping bodies at remote sites. A carman's job in Victorian London was rather more parochial, trotting back and forth between venues in and around London, not further afield (that's what the railways were for). And, rather than "weaponising" his transport, we're told that Lechmere killed in his own neighbourhood, whilst walking to work, and the bodies were found where they fell. Lechmere's truck - sorry, cart - was not instrumental in his alleged murders at all.

So, the comparison between the actuality of Lechmere's job and his purported MO with those killers who have happened to be truck-drivers or butchers doesn't stack up in the final analysis.

[Abby Normal]

Wow, Ab - please do let me know what was not sensible in my response to Fish's ideas. You know, since you're apparently the arbiter!

My reaction wasn't kneejerk, and neither do I have any animus towards Christer or the Lechmere theory. I didn't need to ruminate because these are issues most of us have thought about or read about. Lechmere's profession was absent the three factors that make long distance lorry drivers such good serialist material: absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sorry you thought it unreasonable.

Hi henry
yes sorry-your posts are very reasonable. I disagree with some of it but again didn't mean to include you if you thought as much.
sorry for MY "knee jerk" reaction.

[Abby Normal]

Kudos to Fish for posting them - I'm sure they'll make interesting reading - but ultimately it's what those occupations involve that's important in this context. Lechmere was a delivery man, not a butcher. I don't even think it's been satisfactorily proven that he actually delivered meat with any regularity - or at all. Not that doing so would have given him any experience of butchery, unlike those serial killers, such as Dennis Nilsen or JW Gacey, who had some butchery experience, or at least kitchen skills.

Also, the analogy between truck drivers and Lechmere's job as a carman is moot because truck-driving killers typically use their vehicles to kill safely away from home, using their trucks to pick up their victims and for dumping bodies at remote sites. A carman's job in Victorian London was rather more parochial, trotting back and forth between venues in and around London, not further afield (that's what the railways were for). And, rather than "weaponising" his transport, we're told that Lechmere killed in his own neighbourhood, whilst walking to work. His truck - sorry, cart - is not instrumental in his murders at all.

So, the comparison between the actuality of Lechmere's job and his purported MO with those killers who have happened to be truck-drivers or butchers doesn't stack up in the final analysis.

Hi Sam
thanks well IMHO they do stack up-see my response to el.

[John G]

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.



while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.



well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.



pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.




somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

Just to pick up on one of your points. Is there any evidence that "local drivers", as opposed to, say, long distance lorry drivers, are more likely to be serial killers?

[Elamarna]

Hi Abby, a few responses.

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.
while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.

The same points about a reason to be there could apply to many jobs.
There is no evidence of any use of a cart in any of the C5.
He does not leave home until 3.20-3.30. In reality he works early morning, he is at home for the majority of the dark hours as far as we know. The knowledge of the routes could be had by many locals including many with no steady employment

well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.

I see vague similarities and far more differences, one being he works in a busy city and the cart provides little if any privacy compared to a truck, or as I posted before a barge or train.

pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.

Yes but it's not really a correlation is it.

somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

Yes there may have been a degree of cutting down, has I admitted. It is the one with the closest link, but even then it's not strong.

Desensitized yes it very possible. I saw it happen to people in research, thankfully few, fortunately none went on to be killers as far as I know.


Cheers


Steve

[Henry Flower]

Hi henry
yes sorry-your posts are very reasonable. I disagree with some of it but again didn't mean to include you if you thought as much.
sorry for MY "knee jerk" reaction.

I agree with you - the material is interesting, and worth thinking about for sure, and I'm intrigued by Steve's suggestion of professions that are more analagous to the modern long-haul lorry driver than was Lechmere's local delivery cart routes.

I just can't get past the fact that the analogy Christer proposes simply doesn't work: Lechmere worked locally, and went home to his family. His was emphatically not a life on the road. That's not to say I'd rule out a connection between Lechmere's work and the possibility of such work having some connection with any murders he may have committed, merely that the butchery angle seems a huge stretch, and the modern long-haul lorry driver angle an even further stretch.

I mean, the development of the freeway has - according to my reading anyway - actually facilitated the awful rise in the numbers of serialists in the US. It's virtually an invitation to the curious to give it a go. A huge continent, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sure this idea - that an itinerant life pulls up a person's moral anchor - ties in, in some way, with the long-held distrust of the Romany community, and those 'rootless cosmopolitans' the wandering Jews....

[Fisherman]

The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.

Lo and behold - one poster gets it right.

I have not said anything at all about what weight I put on these matters.

I have not said that it strengthens the case against Lechmere.

But that does not stop what Abby calls the normal knee-jerk reaction; I am "desperate", I am making impossible comparisons etcetera.

What I have done is to point out that a carman was the equivalent of todays lorry drivers and long-haul truckers. They are both employed in the goods transporting business.

And I have pointed out that there is an overwhelming possibility that Lechmere handled dead body parts from animals, meaning that he was subjected to a possible desensitation.

And I am saying that he thus seems to have ties to the two only known professions that are tied to violent crime, serial killing included.

That, gentlemen, whether you like it or not, is relevant to the case, and I myself find it of great interest since it seems to put Lechmere professionwise in a category that displays violent crime in at least todays world.

That is all I have said - and look at the reactions!

I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmere´s case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays world of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned.

It is a real rot and it runs unforgivably deep here. Thank you, Abby, for disclosing it. I would not be able to do it myself, it took an outsiders voice to do it.

[Fisherman]

I agree with you - the material is interesting, and worth thinking about for sure, and I'm intrigued by Steve's suggestion of professions that are more analagous to the modern long-haul lorry driver than was Lechmere's local delivery cart routes.

I just can't get past the fact that the analogy Christer proposes simply doesn't work: Lechmere worked locally, and went home to his family. His was emphatically not a life on the road. That's not to say I'd rule out a connection between Lechmere's work and the possibility of such work having some connection with any murders he may have committed, merely that the butchery angle seems a huge stretch, and the modern long-haul lorry driver angle an even further stretch.

I mean, the development of the freeway has - according to my reading anyway - actually facilitated the awful rise in the numbers of serialists in the US. It's virtually an invitation to the curious to give it a go. A huge continent, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sure this idea - that an itinerant life pulls up a person's moral anchor - ties in, in some way, with the long-held distrust of the Romany community, and those 'rootless cosmopolitans' the wandering Jews....

Before I go - you identify three parts as crucial to the lorry driver/serialist:
"absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances."

We know that many serialists have families.

It seems the Torso killer - who was the same man as the Ripper to my mind - had access to a private space.

The distances the Torso man travelled were quite enough to allow for anonymous dumping with no other clue than that he was a Londoner.

If you have seen the docu, you will have noted that they have another list of factors:

The possibility to dump bodies away from home.
The secluded and soundproof locality offered by the lorry.
The many hours spent alone, offering time to brood on matters.

I never said that Lechmere was the exact copy of a long-haul trucker - I said he was his day´s equivalent; a man working with the transportation of goods by a loading vehicle.

Not did I say that he was a butcher - my contention is that he did not need to be in order to be desensitised by handling dead animal parts. And it seems he did just that. It is not the anatomical knowledge I am after here, since I am fairly certain about where the killer got that.

[Henry Flower]

Lo and behold - one poster gets it right.

I have not said anything at all about what weight i put on these matters.

I have not said that it strengthens the case against Lechmere.

But that does not stop what Abby calls the normal knee-jerk reaction; I am "desperate", I am making impossible comparisons etcetera.

What I have done is to point out that a carman was the equivalent of todays lorry drivers and long-haul truckers. They are both employed in the goods transporting business.

And I have pointed out that there is an overwhelming possibility that Lechmere handled dead body parts from animals, meaning that he was subjected to a possible desensitation.

And I am saying that he thus seems to have ties to the two only known professions that are tied to violent crime, serial killing included.

That, gentlemen, whether you like it or not, is relevant to the case, and I myself find it of great interest since it seems to put Lechmere professionwise in a category that displays violent crime in at least todays world.

That is all I have said - and look at the reactions!

I can now honestly say that this was to a degree what I wanted to get out of the thread - a clear indication that in Lechmere´s case, the case facts, the relevant surrounding material, the comparisons it offers with todays worl of serial killing, is something that is totally secondary to many posters out here - secondary to the urge to shout NO! whenever the carmans name is mentioned.

It is a real rot and it runs unforgivably deep here. Thank you, Abby, for disclosing it. I would not be able to do it myself, it took an outsiders voice to do it.

I've looked at the reactions, Christer, and aside from Simon Wood I don't see any hostility, any sneering dismissal, anything untoward at all. You haven't even been accused of adopting... "tactics"!! So why not stop playing the martyr and either engage with people or not.

You say you have made no claims, merely pointed out that Lech was the equivalent of a modern long-haul lorry driver. And several of us have disagreed with that comparison and pointed out exactly why.

THAT is 'the response' you've had. What exactly is the problem with that?

[Henry Flower]

"We know that many serialists have families."

You are quite right, my phrasing was imprecise: rather than 'absence of family' I ought perhaps to have said 'prolonged absence from family'.

(Which is something that Lechmere's profession did not necessitate to any greater a degree than most other professions, wouldn't you agree?)

[Sam Flynn]

What I have done is to point out that a carman was the equivalent of todays lorry drivers and long-haul truckers.

They weren't really, though. The real equivalent were railway workers.

They are both employed in the goods transporting business.

So is a postman. Or a railwayman, for that matter.

And I have pointed out that there is an overwhelming possibility that Lechmere handled dead body parts from animals, meaning that he was subjected to a possible desensitation.

What's an "overwhelming possibility"? It's by no means certain. We don't even know that he DID deliver meat on a regular, or even occasional, basis. Even if he did, saying that he "handled dead body parts from animals" is putting it rather strongly, when all he would have done - if he did it at all frequently - was pick up meat that someone else had prepared and delivered it somewhere else. It's even possible that the meat would have been bagged or boxed beforehand anyway.

Not much to get de-sensitised to, whichever way you look at it.

That is all I have said - and look at the reactions!

People have posted cogent and sober responses in the main, Fish, or did I miss some nasty ones?