Deadly occupations and serial murder

[Herlock Sholmes]

That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

What does that tell us?

That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!

Have you checked CL's star sign to see if it's the same as Peter Sutcliffes?

Herlock

[John G]

That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

What does that tell us?

That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!

But surely one has to consider context, which is what Pierre illustrated in Post 7.

[Herlock Sholmes]

...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing. The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.

All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder. That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

It is probably just another coincidence, eh?

Skewed perspective! It's a prerequisite that a postman has to be able to read and so naturally will be acquainted with letters. A meat delivery man however wouldn't need to know how to carve a side of beef into steaks and joints etc!

Coincidence....no. Just completely irrelevant.

Herlock

[Henry Flower]

That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

What does that tell us?

That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!

Christer, please tell us: what ties did Lechmere have to the occupation of long-haul lorry driver?

I notice you seem reluctant to reply to the substantive arguments that both Pierre and I have made pointing out that what he did was nothing like being a modern long-distance lorry driver.

[Fisherman]

Hi

CL didn't use his job as an aid to killing. He didn't kill while he was out delivering. The point that has been made was about the likelihood of killing 'on the way to work.' Under time constraints imposed by needing to be somewhere at a certain time and with all the attendant risks of possibly turning up for work with a stray bloodstain. Also, if he hadn't seen Paul and afterwards Mizen, he could have faced one of his workmates saying ' hey Charlie, don't you pass down Bucks Row every morning just where that woman was found dead?'
Bury drove a cart. Issendschmidt was a butcher? What do we glean from those facts?

Regards

Herlock

That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

What does that tell us?

That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!

[Fisherman]

...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing. The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.

All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder. That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

It is probably just another coincidence, eh?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi

CL didn't use his job as an aid to killing. He didn't kill while he was out delivering. The point that has been made was about the likelihood of killing 'on the way to work.' Under time constraints imposed by needing to be somewhere at a certain time and with all the attendant risks of possibly turning up for work with a stray bloodstain. Also, if he hadn't seen Paul and afterwards Mizen, he could have faced one of his workmates saying ' hey Charlie, don't you pass down Bucks Row every morning just where that woman was found dead?'
Bury drove a cart. Issendschmidt was a butcher? What do we glean from those facts?

Regards

Herlock

[John G]

Isn't the argument about JtR being a butcher two fold? Thus, firstly it's argued that JtR had anatomical knowledge, which might point to a butcher. Secondly, a butcher or slaughterman are suggested on the basis that these are the type of occupations that JtR might be drawn to: as they would enable him to indulge his fantasies. See, for example, http://www.casebook.org/press_report...l?printer=true

However, Lechmere was not a butcher and therefore I don't see how either of these arguments apply to him.

[Sam Flynn]

And he was involved with butchery, owing to his work

Picking up meat and delivering it is no more being "involved with butchery" than a postman picking up a letter and delivering it is "involved in writing".

Is it even proven that Lechmere was "involved with delivering meat", or is that a supposition?

[John G]

[QUOTE=Pierre;423923]

Deducing from 25 men in our time to Lechmere in 1888. Deducing from truckers who left home for days - weeks - months and travelled over vast areas to Lechmere who moved around within a few miles.


Of course they are. The victims were dumped along the freeways where truck drivers work.



So they were overrepresented at truck stops. Lechmere had no truck stops.



You prefer to believe in a television program without knowing how the data used was constructed.



No commments.



I have pointed out the big differences between Lechmere and the US truckers to you as you can see above.



Ibid.


Everyone in Whitechapel was "exposed to prositution along their routes".


That is the old hypothesis from 1888. A butcher must have done it since they were "butchered".

Lechmere was not a butcher.



Suddenly you realized that.



This is wrong. There are very few murders through history with all the characteristics of the murders in 88-89.



What you do here is you postulate a TYPE of person for which you have seen a television program and read an article and mix those two and then apply them theoretically to Lechmere. You create you own ideal type where you focus on two specific professions and forget the rest and then put these two together.

1 serial killer trucker+1 serial killer butcher equals 1 serial killer Lechmere.

That is your theoretical perspective. You apply it on the past. But the past is gone. I.e. all the sources you need to prove your idea about Lechmere is gone. So instead, you seem to use anything you can find.

Pierre

I would have to say that this is a very good post with excellent analysis of the issues.

[Henry Flower]

Since my first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice, and for the last twenty years I have driven an 18 wheeler, I guess my defense is totally shot....

Stop playing games, Jon. Tell us where you buried them and we'll discuss life without parole. Otherwise.....

[Wickerman]

Now, if I may be so bold, please do not offer the answer "So now every trucker is a serial killer?" "And every butcher hits the town, meatcleaver in hand, after working hours?"

Since my first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice, and for the last twenty years I have driven an 18 wheeler, I guess my defense is totally shot....

[Henry Flower]

Truck driver Robert Ben Rhoades killed and dumped people in Texas, Utah, Mississippi, Illinois, and was finally arrested in Arizona - with a terrified woman handcuffed in the sleeping cab.

That's some distance. And that's what gives them the means, the mentality, and the opportunity.

If you want to compare Lechmere to a modern profession, he's no long-distance serial killing truck driver; he's the local milkman.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;423902]

-There are 25 men, all former truckers, who are jailed for serial murder in the US.

Deducing from 25 men in our time to Lechmere in 1888. Deducing from truckers who left home for days - weeks - months and travelled over vast areas to Lechmere who moved around within a few miles.

-There are around 500 unsolved murder cases where victims have been found dumped along the freeways of the US.

-In these cases, 200 of the suspects are truck drivers.

Of course they are. The victims were dumped along the freeways where truck drivers work.

- The bulk of the victims are prostitutes, working the truck stops.

So they were overrepresented at truck stops. Lechmere had no truck stops.

I find this immensely interesting. It firmly establishes the truckers role as one that offers itself up to abductions, rape and murder. The figures blew me away.

You prefer to believe in a television program without knowing how the data used was constructed.

Oddly, this is not the one and only occupational category that has been connected to violent crime over the years. At the University of Windsor, criminology professor Amy Fitzgerald states that statistics show a clear link between slaughterhouses, butchery and brutal crime. It is, she says, an empirical fact. Whenever abbatoirs are introduced into a community, the levels of violent crime follows suit. It is speculated that a desensitation is what causes this.

In this case, the link:

https://eatingplantsdotorg.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/an-intriguing-correlation-slaughterhouses-and-violent-crime/

is useful.

No commments.

But where is the applicability for the Lechmere case? Well, Lechmere was the equivalent of todays truckers,

I have pointed out the big differences between Lechmere and the US truckers to you as you can see above.

he too was in the goods transport business.

Ibid.

He was exposed to prostitution along his routes.

Everyone in Whitechapel was "exposed to prositution along their routes".

And he was involved with butchery, owing to his work, and possibly also to the Lechmere family tradition of processing horse meat.

That is the old hypothesis from 1888. A butcher must have done it since they were "butchered".

Lechmere was not a butcher.

Of course, todays trucking is different from the carmanship of the East End in 1888. And of course, our society differs from theirs.

Suddenly you realized that.

But it seems that Lechmere was involved in the two occupations that are the only ones, as far as I can tell, that have been connected roughly to the types of crimes the Ripper made himself guilty of.

This is wrong. There are very few murders through history with all the characteristics of the murders in 88-89.

Now, if I may be so bold, please do not offer the answer "So now every trucker is a serial killer?" "And every butcher hits the town, meatcleaver in hand, after working hours?"

These facts are worthy of a much better and more profound discussion.

Anybody?

What you do here is you postulate a TYPE of person for which you have seen a television program and read an article and mix those two and then apply them theoretically to Lechmere. You create you own ideal type where you focus on two specific professions and forget the rest and then put these two together.

1 serial killer trucker+1 serial killer butcher equals 1 serial killer Lechmere.

That is your theoretical perspective. You apply it on the past. But the past is gone. I.e. all the sources you need to prove your idea about Lechmere is gone. So instead, you seem to use anything you can find.

Pierre

[John G]

This looks like an interesting article, which provides some support for your argument: https://www.scopus.com/record/displa...862cf627f0803b

The citation is Lynes and Wilson (2015).

You would need to register with Scopus to gain full access.

Oh dear, it appears the article is only available in abstract on Scopus.

This is another piece of literature on the subject by the same author, entitled, The Road to Murder: Why Driving is the Occupation of Choice for Britain's Serial Killers. See: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...20kill&f=false