Deadly occupations and serial murder

[Sam Flynn]

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

Kudos to Fish for posting them - I'm sure they'll make interesting reading - but ultimately it's what those occupations involve that's important in this context. When we examine what's involved, then the comparisons don't really stand up to much scrutiny.

Lechmere was a delivery man, not a butcher. I don't even think it's been satisfactorily proven that he actually delivered meat with any regularity - or at all. Not that doing so would have given him any experience of butchery, unlike those serial killers, such as Dennis Nilsen or JW Gacey, who had some butchery experience, or at least kitchen skills.

Also, the analogy between truck drivers and Lechmere's job as a carman is moot because truck-driving killers typically use their vehicles to kill safely away from home, using their trucks to pick up their victims and for dumping bodies at remote sites. A carman's job in Victorian London was rather more parochial, trotting back and forth between venues in and around London, not further afield (that's what the railways were for). And, rather than "weaponising" his transport, we're told that Lechmere killed in his own neighbourhood, whilst walking to work, and the bodies were found where they fell. Lechmere's truck - sorry, cart - was not instrumental in his alleged murders at all.

So, the comparison between the actuality of Lechmere's job and his purported MO with those killers who have happened to be truck-drivers or butchers doesn't stack up in the final analysis.

[Abby Normal]

Wow, Ab - please do let me know what was not sensible in my response to Fish's ideas. You know, since you're apparently the arbiter!

My reaction wasn't kneejerk, and neither do I have any animus towards Christer or the Lechmere theory. I didn't need to ruminate because these are issues most of us have thought about or read about. Lechmere's profession was absent the three factors that make long distance lorry drivers such good serialist material: absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sorry you thought it unreasonable.

sorry Henry-I must have missed it. Ill go back and check it out.

[Henry Flower]

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.



while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.



well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.



pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.




somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

Wow, Ab - please do let me know what was not sensible in my response to Fish's ideas. You know, since you're apparently the arbiter!

My reaction wasn't kneejerk, and neither do I have any animus towards Christer or the Lechmere theory. I didn't need to ruminate because these are issues most of us have thought about or read about. Lechmere's profession was absent the three factors that make long distance lorry drivers such good serialist material: absence of family, a mobile private space, and the anonymity of huge distances.

I'm sorry you thought it unreasonable.

[Abby Normal]

Very little to add to what has already been posted.

However I will just sumerise what other have said.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

Steve

HI El
finally a sensible reaction.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

while true, he still spent a good part of his time on the road, and his cart could have aided, like it did in the studies of truck drivers-in the murders. Knowledge of the routes, reason for being there if questioned, mobile bolt hole to hide things. and he spent a good deal of his time out at night per his occupation.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

well they were dropped on or near his way to work-but point taken.as for similarities Between carman and trucker I see a many if not nearly identical.
And note-He was a local driver-the murders were local.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

pretty much agree with this-but if he delivered meat it could always be an excuse if he was ever found with blood on him.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

somewhat agree, but I'm sure they needed to cut it up to some extent-even to package. also, the studies, and others Ive heard of is that working around blood and guts desensitizes-Ive also read that a lot of the times killers drift to occupations that include part of there fantasy. not sure about it myself but perhaps-its not outrageous ideas IMHO.

[John G]

The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.

It's an interesting subject matter, Abby, and one that the eminent criminologist Professor David Wilson has written about. However, I'm struggling to see what relevance it has to Lechmere who, for example, was not a butcher. He did drive a horse and cart, but I cannot see how that mode of transport remotely resembles a modern motor vehicle, let alone a truck.

[Harry D]

But even if Lechmere did handle pre-packaged meat, how does that convert into experience of butchery?

[Elamarna]

The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.

Abby

I do not think many are disagreeing with the basic idea that some jobs may be shall we say more suited to a serial killer. I think the issue people are having is there seems little if any correlation between the occupations mentioned by Fish and that of Lechmere.

Carmen are certainly not the equivalent of present day truckers. In the mid 1800's the canal man/barge man would be, by 1888 canal use has fallen and rail use has increased so one could have said railway man either one of the engine crew or the guard, as well as canal men played the same role and had the same opportunities.

To be fair butchers have often been mentioned as possible suspects, levy in particular.
So the actual premise seems very reasonable, but needs considerably more data than a single documentary to establish such as a fact.
For a moment let's just accept that such is true, it just seems very hard to fit that to Lechmere and his occupation


Steve

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;423941]

...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing.

And the C-5 were easy to detect.

The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.

The dismemberment cases were done by more than one person.

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.

Did he hunt animals?

All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have

The Wouldhaves.

had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder.

Those occupations are not "connected" to murder. It is spurious. A percentage of all murderers are truckers. You must perform regression to get the "connections".

That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

It is probably just another coincidence, eh?

You are talking about a person who lived and worked in Whitechapel in 1888.

Pierre

[Abby Normal]

The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.

[Elamarna]

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.

Christer

Are you seriously saying that handling of meat -animal body parts as you put it gives a person a knowledge of butchery?
If so the same would apply to any cook in a large house, restaurant or club and today would apply to anyone who stocks up their freezer.

He is transporting precut pieces of meat to homes, restaurants or even local butchers, he is not involved in preparing it himself is he?

I really don't thing this works at all.


Steve

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

I'm not skewing anything, and I said nothing about "being acquainted with" letters; the operative word I used was "involved in". But the postman doesn't get to write them as part of his job, does he? He just picks up and delivers what other people have prepared. His job doesn't "involve him" in letter production at all.

Ditto the relationship between delivering meat and butchery.

[Sam Flynn]

The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery.

They'd have had a job getting a dead horse into the poky front room of 29 Hanbury Street for Harriet Hardiman to chop it up.

[Abby Normal]

Okay, letīs throw a little something into the Lechmere bonfire.

Hereīs a question for you all: are there any occupations that typically involve a raised level of criminal activity/serial murder?

The question may seem an odd one, but it really isnīt.

Earlier today, I posted a link to a documentary from last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEwLXwPZuh4

It is a docu about how it has been revealed that long-haul truckers in the US are very common guests on death row. It is stated in the docu that:

-There are 25 men, all former truckers, who are jailed for serial murder in the US.

-There are around 500 unsolved murder cases where victims have been found dumped along the freeways of the US.

-In these cases, 200 of the suspects are truck drivers.

- The bulk of the victims are prostitutes, working the truck stops.

I find this immensely interesting. It firmly establishes the truckers role as one that offers itself up to abductions, rape and murder. The figures blew me away.

Oddly, this is not the one and only occupational category that has been connected to violent crime over the years. At the University of Windsor, criminology professor Amy Fitzgerald states that statistics show a clear link between slaughterhouses, butchery and brutal crime. It is, she says, an empirical fact. Whenever abbatoirs are introduced into a community, the levels of violent crime follows suit. It is speculated that a desensitation is what causes this.

In this case, the link:

https://eatingplantsdotorg.wordpress.com/2011/10/06/an-intriguing-correlation-slaughterhouses-and-violent-crime/

is useful.

But where is the applicability for the Lechmere case? Well, Lechmere was the equivalent of todays truckers, he too was in the goods transport business. He was exposed to prostitution along his routes. And he was involved with butchery, owing to his work, and possibly also to the Lechmere family tradition of processing horse meat.

Of course, todays trucking is different from the carmanship of the East End in 1888. And of course, our society differs from theirs.

But it seems that Lechmere was involved in the two occupations that are the only ones, as far as I can tell, that have been connected roughly to the types of crimes the Ripper made himself guilty of.

Now, if I may be so bold, please do not offer the answer "So now every trucker is a serial killer?" "And every butcher hits the town, meatcleaver in hand, after working hours?"

These facts are worthy of a much better and more profound discussion.

Anybody?

Hi Fish
Very interesting. I need to ruminate on it a little.
Thanks for posting.

[Abby Normal]

Since my first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice, and for the last twenty years I have driven an 18 wheeler, I guess my defense is totally shot....

no wonder you keep pressing as your favorite suspect a well dressed well to do individual wicky! trying to shift the blame I see....

just kidding.

[Elamarna]

Very little to add to what has already been posted.

However I will just sumerise what other have said.

1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

Steve