The Lechmere/Cross "name issue"

[Abby Normal]

not really the way I see it. for me its he is told he is "needed in bucks row," and when he gets there he sees Neil and assumes it is Neil who required him. not quite the same as you suggest. We won't agree on that so see no need to go over that all again, hope you agree.


Steve

Hi el
Agree. This is what I've pretty much thought is the most likely way it happened.

[Joshua Rogan]

Has anyone just listed all the newspaper accounts of everything Mizen, Cross and Paul testified?

Cross evidence

Daily News 4th Sept
Police constable Mizen said that about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the corner of Hanbury street and Baker's row, when a carman passing by in company with another man said, "You are wanted in Buck's row by a policeman; a woman is lying there." The witness went to Buck's row, where Police constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body. On returning with the ambulance he helped to put the deceased upon it.
A juryman - Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted?
Witness - No. I only finished knocking up one person.
Charles A. Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for some years. On Friday morning he left home about half past three to go to work, and passing through Buck's row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. In the dark he could not tell at first what it was. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but walking to the middle of the road he saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man about forty yards away coming up Buck's row in the direction witness had himself come. He stepped back and waited for the newcomer, who started on one side, as if he feared that the witness meant to knock him down. The witness said, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." They both went across to the body, and the witness took hold of the hands while the other man stopped over her head to look at her. The hands were cold and limp, and the witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man placed his hand on her heart, saying, "I think she's breathing, but it's very little if she is." He suggested that they should "shift her," meaning in the witness's opinion that they should seat her upright. The witness replied, "I am not going to touch her." The woman's legs were uncovered. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. The witness did not notice that her throat was cut, as the night was very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's row they saw the last witness whom they told that a woman was lying in Buck's row. The witness added, "She looks to me either dead or drunk," and the other man remarked, "I think she's dead." The policeman answered, "All right." The other man left witness soon afterwards. He appeared to be a carman, but the witness had never seen him before.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil in Buck's row?
The Witness - No, sir. I saw no one after leaving home, except the man that overtook me, the constable in Baker's row, and the deceased. There was nobody in Buck's row when we left. The Coroner - Did the other man tell you who he was?
The Witness - No, sir. He merely said that he would have fetched a policeman but he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A juryman - Did you tell Constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck's row?
The Witness - No; because I did not see a policeman in Buck's row.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. the body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered.
Daily Telegraph 4th Sept
Police-constable Mizen said that at a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body.

Chas. Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over twenty years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row. He discerned on the opposite side something lying against the gateway, but he could not at once make out what it was. He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet. He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from. When he came up witness said to him, "Come and look over here; there is a woman lying on the pavement." They both crossed over to the body, and witness took hold of the woman's hands, which were cold and limp. Witness said, "I believe she is dead." He touched her face, which felt warm. The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said "I think she is breathing, but very little if she is." Witness suggested that they should give her a prop, but his companion refused to touch her. Just then they heard a policeman coming. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut, the night being very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's-row they met the last witness, whom they informed that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-row. Witness said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on. The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before.
Replying to the coroner, witness denied having seen Police-constable Neil in Buck's-row. There was nobody there when he and the other man left. In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries.
The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was?
Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.
Robert Baul, 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness drew closer he walked towards the pavement, and he (Baul) stepped in the roadway to pass him. The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman. Before he reached Buck's-row he had seen no one running away.

Echo 3rd Sept
Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.
The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.
By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross.
By the Jury - Witness went to the spot directly Cross told him, and did not stop to knock any one up.

Charles A. Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford and Co., said that on Friday morning he left his home about half-past three. He reached Messrs. Pickford's yard at Broad-street, City, at four o'clock. He crossed Brady-street into Buck's-row. Was there any one with you? - No, I was by myself. As I got to Buck's-row, by the gateway of the wool warehouse, I saw someone lying at the entrance to the gateway. It looked like a dark figure. I walked into the centre of the road, and saw that it was a woman. At the same time I heard a man come up behind, in the same direction as I was going. He was about thirty or forty yards behind then. I stepped back to await his arrival. When he came, I said to him, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." We then both went over to the body. He stooped one side of her, and I stooped the other, and took hold of her hand, which was cold. Her face was warm. I said to the man, "I believe the woman is dead." The other man at the same time, put his hand on her breast over her heart and remarked, "I think she is breathing, but very little, if she is." He then said, "Sit her up," I replied, "I'm not going to touch her. You had better go on, and if you see a policeman tell him." When I found her, her clothes were above her knees. There did not seem to be much clothing. The other man pulled her clothes down before he left.
Did you touch the clothes? - No, Sir.
Did you notice any blood? - No, it was too dark. I did not notice that her throat was cut. I then left her, went up Baker's-row, turned to the right, and saw a constable. I said to a constable - the last witness - "There's a woman lying in Buck's-row. She looks to me as though she was dead, or drunk." The other man then said, "I believe she is dead." I don't know who this man was; he was a stranger, but appeared to me to be a carman. From the time I left my home I did not see anyone until I saw the man who overtook me in Buck's-row.
The Coroner - Did you see anything of a struggle.
Witness - She seemed to me as if she had been outraged.
You did not think so at the time? - Yes, I did; but I did not think she had been injured.
You had no idea that she had been injured at all? - No.
Robert Paul - no record

Evening Standard 4th Sept
Police constable George Maizen, 55H, said - On Friday morning, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when some one who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and the witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question.) I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station, and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
Charles Allen Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford, said on Friday morning I left home at half past three. I went down Parson street, crossed Brady street, and through Buck's row. I was alone. As I got up Buck's row I saw something lying on the north side in the gateway to a wool warehouse. It looked to me like a man's tarpaulin, but on going into the centre of the road I saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had done, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body. I bent over her head, and touched her hand, which was cold. I said, "She is dead." The other man, after he had felt her heart, said, Yes, she is." he then suggested that we should shift her, but I said, "No, let us go and tell a policeman." When I found her clothes were up above her knees, we tried to pull them over her, but they did not seem as if they would come down. I did not notice any blood.
The Coroner - Did you not see that her throat was cut?
Witness - No; it was very dark at the time. We left together and went up Baker's row, where we met a constable. I said to him, "There is a woman in Buck's row on the broad of her back. She is dead or else drunk." the constable said he would go, and I left him and went on to work.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil about?
Witness - No, I did not see any one at all, except the constable I spoke to. I don't think I met anybody, after I left my house till I got to the body.
Robert Paul, Forster street, Whitechapel, said - I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck's row I saw a man standing in the roadway, When I got close to him, he said, "Come and look at this woman;" and together we went across the road. There was a woman lying across the gateway, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her hands and face; they were cold. I sent the other man for a policeman.

IPN 8th Sept
Police-constable Mizen deposed that at about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning, while he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker's-row, a carman passing by, in company with another man, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row by a policeman. A woman is lying there." The witness then went to Buck's-row, and Police-constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. Nobody but Neil was with the body at that time.--In reply to a juryman, witness said that when the carman spoke to him he was engaged in knocking people up, and he finished knocking at the one place where he was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck's-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else.
Charles A. Cross, a carman, said that he was in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. He left home about half-past three o'clock on Friday morning to go to work, and in passing through Buck's-row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. He could not tell in the dark what it was at first. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but, stepping into the middle of the road, he saw that it was the body of a woman. At this time he heard a man--about forty yards off--approaching from the direction that witness had himself come from. He waited for the man, who started on one side, as if afraid that witness meant to knock him down. Witness said, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." They then went over to the body. Witness took hold of teh hands of the woman, and the other man stooped over her head to look at her. Feeling the hands cold and limp witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man put his head on her heart saying, "I think she's breathing, but it is very little if she is." The man suggested that they should "shift her," meaning to set her upright. Witness answered, "I am not going to touch her." The other man tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut. The night was very dark. Witness and the other man left the woman, and in Baker's-row they saw Police-constable Mizen. They told him that a woman was lying in Buck's-row, witness adding, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk." The other man observed, "I think she's dead." The policeman replied, "All right." The other man, who appeared to be a carman, left witness soon afterwards. Witness did not see Constable Neil. He saw no one except the man that overtook him, the constable in Baker's-row whom he spoke to, and the deceased. In reply to further questions, the witness said the deceased looked to him at the time as if she had been outraged, and had gone off in a swoon. He had then no idea that she was so seriously injured. The other man merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, but he was behind time. Witness was behind time himself. He did not tell constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck's-row.
John Paul, of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, said he was a carman. On Friday, August 31st, he left home at about a quarter to four o'clock to go to his work in Spitalfields. He was passing up Buck's-row and saw a man standing in the road. As he got nearer the man stepped on to the pavement, and as witness was passing he touched him on the shoulder and said, "Come and look at this woman." He then saw the body of a woman lying across the gateway, dead. The night being very dark he did not notice any blood. - By the Coroner: The morning was cold. Witness and the man who had stopped him walked down Buck's-row to find a policeman, which they did in a few minutes.

Lloyds Weekly 9th Sept
Police-constable Mizen said that at a quarter to one o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body.

Charles Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over 20 years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row. He discerned on the opposite side something lying against the gateway, but he could not at once make out what it was. He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet. He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about 40 yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from. When he came up witness said to him, "Come and look over here; there is a woman lying on the pavement." They both crossed over to the body, and the witness then took hold of the woman's hands, which were cold and limp. Witness said, "I believe she is dead." He touched her face, which felt warm. The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said, "I think she is breathing, but very little if she is." Witness suggested that they should give her a prop, but his companion refused to touch her. Just then they heard a policeman coming. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut, the night being very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's-row they met the last witness, whom they informed that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-row. Witness said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on. The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before.
Replying to the coroner, witness denied having seen Police-constable Neil in Buck's-row. There was nobody there when he and the other man left. In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries.
The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was?
Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.

Robert Paul no record of evidence, but Lloyds Interview 2nd Sept
On Friday night Mr. Robert Paul, a carman, on his return from work, made the following statement to our representative. He said :- It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot. The man, however, came towards me and said, "Come and look at this woman." I went and found the woman lying on her back. I laid hold of her wrist and found that she was dead and the hands cold. It was too dark to see the blood about her. I thought that she had been outraged, and had died in the struggle. I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead. The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time, and either she had been lying there, left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there. If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time. If a policeman had been there he must have seen her, for she was plain enough to see. Her bonnet was lying about two feet from her head.
Also, this from 23rd
THE CORONER AND WITNESSES' FEES.
There is great indignation at the East-end over the shabby treatment of witnesses. On their summonses was printed in red letters across the subpoena:
N.B. - Bring this summons with you. All fees and expenses are required by the Act of Vic., cap. 68. sec. 1, to be advanced and paid by the coroner immediately after the termination of the inquest to such witnesses as the coroner may think fit to allow.
Mr. Paul says that after he made his statement to our representative, which appeared in Lloyd's, he was fetched up in the middle of the night by the police, and was obliged to lose a day's work the next day, for which he got nothing. He was then summoned to give evidence at the inquest on two different days, and he had to pay a man 5s. each day to do his work, or he would have lost his place. At the close of the inquest he got two shillings, being a shilling for each day. John Richardson lost four days' work, and he was paid for three days one shilling each day. Cadosh came up from Enfield, and was paid 3s. for his three days' attendance. The coroner for some time demurred to allowing him his railway fares, but eventually did so, but his loss was 1l. 8s. 9d. John Davis, who discovered the body, lost two days, and was paid 2s., Mrs Long lost two days, and she was paid 2s. Other witnesses told the same story of what they naturally consider very unjust treatment.

Morning Advertiser 4th Sept
Police constable George Maizen (sic), 55 H, said - On Friday morning last, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question). I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman.
Charles Allen Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford, said - On Friday morning I left home at half past three. I went down Parson street, crossed Brady street, and through Buck's row. I was alone. As I got up Buck's row I saw something lying on the north side, in the gateway to a tool warehouse. It looked to me like a man's tarpaulin, but on going into the centre of the road I saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had come, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body. I bent over her head and touched her hand, which was cold. I said, "She is dead." The other man, after he had felt her heart, said, "Yes, she is." He then suggested that we should shift her, but I said, "No, let us go and tell a policeman." When I found her clothes were up above her knees we tried to pull them over her, but they did not seem as if they would come down. I did not notice any blood.
The Coroner - Did you not see that her throat was cut?
Witness - No; it was very dark at the time. We left together, and went up Baker's row, where we met a constable. I said to him, "There is a woman in Buck's row on the broad of her back. She is dead, or else drunk." The constable said he would go, and I left him and went to work.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil about?
Witness - No; I did not see anyone at all around except the constable I spoke to. I don't think I met anybody after I left my house till I got to the body.
Robert Paul, Forster-street, Whitechapel. -- I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck's-row I saw a man standing in the roadway. When I got close up to him, he said, "Come and look at this woman;" and together we went across the road. There was a woman lying across the gateway, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her hands and face; they were cold. I sent the other man for a policeman.

The Star 3rd Sept
Policeman George Myzen said that at a quarter to four on Friday morning he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row. A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row. He said a woman had been found there. Witness went to the spot, found Policeman Neil there, and by his instruction witness went for the ambulance. He assisted in removing the body. He noticed blood running from the throat to the gutter. There was only one pool; it was somewhat congealed. Cross, when he spoke to witness about the affair, was accompanied by another man. Both went down Hanbury-street. The witness at the time was in the act of knocking a man up. Cross told him a policeman wanted him. He did not say anything about murder or suicide. It was not true that before he went to Buck's-row, witness continued "knocking people up." He went there immediately.

CARMAN CROSS
was the the next witness. He lived at 22 Doveton street, Cambridge-road. He was employed by Pickfords. He left home on Friday at twenty minutes past three, and got to Pickford's yard at Broad-street at four o'clock. He crossed Bradley-street into Buck's-row. He was alone. He saw something lying in front of the gateway - it looked in the distance like tarpaulin. When he got nearer he found it was a woman. At that time he heard a man coming up the street behind him; he was about 40 yards behind. Witness waited until he came up. He started as though he thought witness was going to knock him down. Witness said to him, "There's a woman." They both went to the body and stooped beside it. Witness took the woman's hand, and finding it cold said, "I believe she's dead." The other man put his hand on the breast outside the clothes - over her heart - and said, "I think she's breathing, but very little." He suggested they should shift her - set her up against the wall - but witness said, "I'm not going to touch her. Let's go on till we see a policeman and tell him." Before they left the body the other man tried to pull the clothes over the woman's knees, but they did not seem as though they would come down. Witness noticed no blood; but it was very dark. He did not see that her throat was cut. They went up Baker's-row, and saw the last witness. Witness said to him, "There's a woman lying down in Buck's-row on the broad of her back. I think she's dead or drunk." The other man said, "I believe she's dead." The policeman said, "All right."
THE OTHER MAN
left witness at the corner of Hanbury-street, and went down Corbett's-court. He was a stranger to witness, but appeared to be a carman. Witness did not see Police-constable Neil - only the constable he spoke to. The constable and the man were the only people he saw after leaving his home. From the position of the body, he thought the woman had been outraged; he did not suppose at the time she had been murdered. The other man said he would fetch a policeman, but he was behind time. Witness heard no sounds of a vehicle. He thought that had anyone left the body after he had turned into Buck's-row he would have heard them.
Answering a juryman, witness said he did not tell Constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him. After Mizen had been told there was a woman lying in Buck's-row he went out and knocked at a door. He did not go towards Buck's-row to do this.
Robert Paul no record found

The Times 4th Sept
Constable G. Mizen, 56 H, stated that at a quarter past 4 on Friday morning he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, and a man passing said "You are wanted in Baker's-row." The man, named Cross, stated that a woman had been found there. In going to the spot he saw Constable Neil, and by the direction of the latter he went for the ambulance. When Cross spoke to witness he was accompanied by another man, and both of them afterwards went down Hanbury-street. Cross simply said he was wanted by a policeman, and did not say anything about a murder having been committed. He denied that before he went to Buck's-row he continued knocking people up.
George Cross, a carman, stated that he left home on Friday morning at 20 minutes past 3, and he arrived at his work, at Broad-street, at 4 o'clock. Witness walked along Buck's-row, and saw something lying in front of the gateway like a tarpaulin. He then saw it was a woman. A man came along and witness spoke to him. They went and looked at the body. Witness, having felt one of the deceased woman's hands and finding it cold, said "I believe she is dead." The other man, having put his hand over her heart, said "I think she is breathing." He wanted witness to assist in shifting her, but he would not do so. He did not notice any blood, as it was very dark. They went to Baker's-row, saw the last witness, and told him there was a woman lying down in Buck's-row on the broad of her back. Witness also said he believed she was dead or drunk, while the other man stated he believed her to be dead. The constable replied "All right." The other man left witness at the corner of Hanbury-street and turned into Corbett's court. He appeared to be a carman, and was a stranger to the witness. At the time he did not think the woman had been murdered. Witness did not hear any sounds of a vehicle, and believed that had any one left the body after he got into Buck's-row he must have heard him.
Robert Baul [Paul], a carman, of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, stated he went to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields. He left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning and as he was passing up Buck's-row he saw a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness approached him he walked towards the pavement, and witness stepped on to the roadway in order to pass him. He then touched witness on the shoulder, and said, "Come and look at this woman here." Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood. They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met. He could not see whether the clothes were torn, and did not feel any other part of her body except the hands and face. They looked to see if there was a constable, but one was not to be seen. While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement.
By the CORONER. - The morning was rather a chilly one. Witness and the other man walked on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. Up to that time not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he saw the body. He had not met any one before he reached Buck's-row, and did not see any one running away.

Woodford Times 7th Sept
Inspector Helson, of the J Division, said the deceased had on a long ulster, with large buttons, five of which were fastened. The bodice of the dress was buttoned, with the exception of two or three buttons at the neck. The stays were fastened up, and were fairly tight. The only part of the garments saturated with blood was the dress at the back of the neck; the hair at the back of the head was clotted with blood. There was no evidence of a recent washing of the parts of the body where the wounds had been inflicted in order to remove the blood. There were no cuts in the clothing; but he believed the murder was committed while the deceased was wearing her clothes. With the exception of one spot in Brady-street, there were no blood stains in the vicinity. Police-constable Mizen gave corroborative evidence.
H. Charles Cross, a carman in the employ of Messrs. Pickford & Co., said he left home about 3.30 on the morning of the murder, and he reached Pickford's at about four o' clock. He went through Brady-street into Buck's-row, and as he was walking on the right hand side of Buck's-row he saw something lying on the other side of the road. It seemed to him like a dark figure. He walked out to the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man coming up the street, in the same direction, and on the same side of the road as himself. The witness waited until the person he had heard arrived, and then said, "Come a little nearer; there is a woman." He stood at the side of the body and took hold of the deceased's hand. The witness then said: "Why, I believe the woman's dead." The other man felt her heart, and said he believed she was dead. The witness's companion suggested that they should raise her, but the witness declined to do anything until a policeman arrived. The witness then described the position of the body. They found a constable and informed him of their discovery.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's-row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. The body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered.

[Jon Guy]

Cross evidence

Daily News 4th Sept
Police constable Mizen said that about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the corner of Hanbury street and Baker's row, when a carman passing by in company with another man said, "You are wanted in Buck's row by a policeman; a woman is lying there." The witness went to Buck's row, where Police constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body. On returning with the ambulance he helped to put the deceased upon it.
A juryman - Did you continue knocking people up after Cross told you you were wanted?
Witness - No. I only finished knocking up one person.
Charles A. Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for some years. On Friday morning he left home about half past three to go to work, and passing through Buck's row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. In the dark he could not tell at first what it was. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but walking to the middle of the road he saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man about forty yards away coming up Buck's row in the direction witness had himself come. He stepped back and waited for the newcomer, who started on one side, as if he feared that the witness meant to knock him down. The witness said, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." They both went across to the body, and the witness took hold of the hands while the other man stopped over her head to look at her. The hands were cold and limp, and the witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man placed his hand on her heart, saying, "I think she's breathing, but it's very little if she is." He suggested that they should "shift her," meaning in the witness's opinion that they should seat her upright. The witness replied, "I am not going to touch her." The woman's legs were uncovered. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. The witness did not notice that her throat was cut, as the night was very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's row they saw the last witness whom they told that a woman was lying in Buck's row. The witness added, "She looks to me either dead or drunk," and the other man remarked, "I think she's dead." The policeman answered, "All right." The other man left witness soon afterwards. He appeared to be a carman, but the witness had never seen him before.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil in Buck's row?
The Witness - No, sir. I saw no one after leaving home, except the man that overtook me, the constable in Baker's row, and the deceased. There was nobody in Buck's row when we left. The Coroner - Did the other man tell you who he was?
The Witness - No, sir. He merely said that he would have fetched a policeman but he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A juryman - Did you tell Constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck's row?
The Witness - No; because I did not see a policeman in Buck's row.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30 Forster street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. the body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered.
Daily Telegraph 4th Sept
Police-constable Mizen said that at a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body.

Chas. Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over twenty years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row. He discerned on the opposite side something lying against the gateway, but he could not at once make out what it was. He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet. He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about forty yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from. When he came up witness said to him, "Come and look over here; there is a woman lying on the pavement." They both crossed over to the body, and witness took hold of the woman's hands, which were cold and limp. Witness said, "I believe she is dead." He touched her face, which felt warm. The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said "I think she is breathing, but very little if she is." Witness suggested that they should give her a prop, but his companion refused to touch her. Just then they heard a policeman coming. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut, the night being very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's-row they met the last witness, whom they informed that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-row. Witness said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on. The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before.
Replying to the coroner, witness denied having seen Police-constable Neil in Buck's-row. There was nobody there when he and the other man left. In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries.
The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was?
Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.
Robert Baul, 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness drew closer he walked towards the pavement, and he (Baul) stepped in the roadway to pass him. The man touched witness on the shoulder and asked him to look at the woman, who was lying across the gateway. He felt her hands and face, and they were cold. The clothes were disarranged, and he helped to pull them down. Before he did so he detected a slight movement as of breathing, but very faint. The man walked with him to Montague-street, and there they saw a policeman. Not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he first saw the woman. Before he reached Buck's-row he had seen no one running away.

Echo 3rd Sept
Police-constable George Myzen, 55 H, said that on Friday morning, at twenty minutes past four, he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there." Witness went there, and saw Constable Neil, who sent him to the station for the ambulance.
The Coroner - Was there anyone else there then? - No one at all, Sir. There was blood running from the throat towards the gutter.
By the Coroner - There was another man in company of Cross when the latter spoke to witness. The other man, who went down Hanbury-street, appeared to be working with Cross.
By the Jury - Witness went to the spot directly Cross told him, and did not stop to knock any one up.

Charles A. Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford and Co., said that on Friday morning he left his home about half-past three. He reached Messrs. Pickford's yard at Broad-street, City, at four o'clock. He crossed Brady-street into Buck's-row. Was there any one with you? - No, I was by myself. As I got to Buck's-row, by the gateway of the wool warehouse, I saw someone lying at the entrance to the gateway. It looked like a dark figure. I walked into the centre of the road, and saw that it was a woman. At the same time I heard a man come up behind, in the same direction as I was going. He was about thirty or forty yards behind then. I stepped back to await his arrival. When he came, I said to him, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." We then both went over to the body. He stooped one side of her, and I stooped the other, and took hold of her hand, which was cold. Her face was warm. I said to the man, "I believe the woman is dead." The other man at the same time, put his hand on her breast over her heart and remarked, "I think she is breathing, but very little, if she is." He then said, "Sit her up," I replied, "I'm not going to touch her. You had better go on, and if you see a policeman tell him." When I found her, her clothes were above her knees. There did not seem to be much clothing. The other man pulled her clothes down before he left.
Did you touch the clothes? - No, Sir.
Did you notice any blood? - No, it was too dark. I did not notice that her throat was cut. I then left her, went up Baker's-row, turned to the right, and saw a constable. I said to a constable - the last witness - "There's a woman lying in Buck's-row. She looks to me as though she was dead, or drunk." The other man then said, "I believe she is dead." I don't know who this man was; he was a stranger, but appeared to me to be a carman. From the time I left my home I did not see anyone until I saw the man who overtook me in Buck's-row.
The Coroner - Did you see anything of a struggle.
Witness - She seemed to me as if she had been outraged.
You did not think so at the time? - Yes, I did; but I did not think she had been injured.
You had no idea that she had been injured at all? - No.
Robert Paul - no record

Evening Standard 4th Sept
Police constable George Maizen, 55H, said - On Friday morning, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when some one who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and the witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question.) I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station, and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
Charles Allen Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford, said on Friday morning I left home at half past three. I went down Parson street, crossed Brady street, and through Buck's row. I was alone. As I got up Buck's row I saw something lying on the north side in the gateway to a wool warehouse. It looked to me like a man's tarpaulin, but on going into the centre of the road I saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had done, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body. I bent over her head, and touched her hand, which was cold. I said, "She is dead." The other man, after he had felt her heart, said, Yes, she is." he then suggested that we should shift her, but I said, "No, let us go and tell a policeman." When I found her clothes were up above her knees, we tried to pull them over her, but they did not seem as if they would come down. I did not notice any blood.
The Coroner - Did you not see that her throat was cut?
Witness - No; it was very dark at the time. We left together and went up Baker's row, where we met a constable. I said to him, "There is a woman in Buck's row on the broad of her back. She is dead or else drunk." the constable said he would go, and I left him and went on to work.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil about?
Witness - No, I did not see any one at all, except the constable I spoke to. I don't think I met anybody, after I left my house till I got to the body.
Robert Paul, Forster street, Whitechapel, said - I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck's row I saw a man standing in the roadway, When I got close to him, he said, "Come and look at this woman;" and together we went across the road. There was a woman lying across the gateway, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her hands and face; they were cold. I sent the other man for a policeman.

IPN 8th Sept
Police-constable Mizen deposed that at about a quarter to four o'clock on Friday morning, while he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker's-row, a carman passing by, in company with another man, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row by a policeman. A woman is lying there." The witness then went to Buck's-row, and Police-constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. Nobody but Neil was with the body at that time.--In reply to a juryman, witness said that when the carman spoke to him he was engaged in knocking people up, and he finished knocking at the one place where he was at the time, giving two or three knocks, and then went directly to Buck's-row, not wanting to knock up anyone else.
Charles A. Cross, a carman, said that he was in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. He left home about half-past three o'clock on Friday morning to go to work, and in passing through Buck's-row he saw on the opposite side something lying against a gateway. He could not tell in the dark what it was at first. It looked like a tarpaulin sheet, but, stepping into the middle of the road, he saw that it was the body of a woman. At this time he heard a man--about forty yards off--approaching from the direction that witness had himself come from. He waited for the man, who started on one side, as if afraid that witness meant to knock him down. Witness said, "Come and look over here. There's a woman." They then went over to the body. Witness took hold of teh hands of the woman, and the other man stooped over her head to look at her. Feeling the hands cold and limp witness said, "I believe she's dead." Then he touched her face, which felt warm. The other man put his head on her heart saying, "I think she's breathing, but it is very little if she is." The man suggested that they should "shift her," meaning to set her upright. Witness answered, "I am not going to touch her." The other man tried to pull her clothes down to cover her legs, but they did not seem as if they would come down. Her bonnet was off, but close to her head. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut. The night was very dark. Witness and the other man left the woman, and in Baker's-row they saw Police-constable Mizen. They told him that a woman was lying in Buck's-row, witness adding, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk." The other man observed, "I think she's dead." The policeman replied, "All right." The other man, who appeared to be a carman, left witness soon afterwards. Witness did not see Constable Neil. He saw no one except the man that overtook him, the constable in Baker's-row whom he spoke to, and the deceased. In reply to further questions, the witness said the deceased looked to him at the time as if she had been outraged, and had gone off in a swoon. He had then no idea that she was so seriously injured. The other man merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, but he was behind time. Witness was behind time himself. He did not tell constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him in Buck's-row.
John Paul, of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, said he was a carman. On Friday, August 31st, he left home at about a quarter to four o'clock to go to his work in Spitalfields. He was passing up Buck's-row and saw a man standing in the road. As he got nearer the man stepped on to the pavement, and as witness was passing he touched him on the shoulder and said, "Come and look at this woman." He then saw the body of a woman lying across the gateway, dead. The night being very dark he did not notice any blood. - By the Coroner: The morning was cold. Witness and the man who had stopped him walked down Buck's-row to find a policeman, which they did in a few minutes.

Lloyds Weekly 9th Sept
Police-constable Mizen said that at a quarter to one o'clock on Friday morning he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying. When he arrived there Constable Neil sent him for the ambulance. At that time nobody but Neil was with the body.

Charles Andrew Cross, carman, said he had been in the employment of Messrs. Pickford and Co. for over 20 years. About half-past three on Friday he left his home to go to work, and he passed through Buck's-row. He discerned on the opposite side something lying against the gateway, but he could not at once make out what it was. He thought it was a tarpaulin sheet. He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row, about 40 yards away, in the direction that he himself had come from. When he came up witness said to him, "Come and look over here; there is a woman lying on the pavement." They both crossed over to the body, and the witness then took hold of the woman's hands, which were cold and limp. Witness said, "I believe she is dead." He touched her face, which felt warm. The other man, placing his hand on her heart, said, "I think she is breathing, but very little if she is." Witness suggested that they should give her a prop, but his companion refused to touch her. Just then they heard a policeman coming. Witness did not notice that her throat was cut, the night being very dark. He and the other man left the deceased, and in Baker's-row they met the last witness, whom they informed that they had seen a woman lying in Buck's-row. Witness said, "She looks to me to be either dead or drunk; but for my part I think she is dead." The policeman said, "All right," and then walked on. The other man left witness soon after. Witness had never seen him before.
Replying to the coroner, witness denied having seen Police-constable Neil in Buck's-row. There was nobody there when he and the other man left. In his opinion deceased looked as if she had been outraged and gone off in a swoon; but he had no idea that there were any serious injuries.
The Coroner: Did the other man tell you who he was?
Witness: No, sir; he merely said that he would have fetched a policeman, only he was behind time. I was behind time myself.
A Juryman: Did you tell Constable Mizen that another constable wanted him in Buck's-row?
Witness: No, because I did not see a policeman in Buck's-row.

Robert Paul no record of evidence, but Lloyds Interview 2nd Sept
On Friday night Mr. Robert Paul, a carman, on his return from work, made the following statement to our representative. He said :- It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market. It was dark, and I was hurrying along, when I saw a man standing where the woman was. He came a little towards me, but as I knew the dangerous character of the locality I tried to give him a wide berth. Few people like to come up and down here without being on their guard, for there are such terrible gangs about. There have been many knocked down and robbed at that spot. The man, however, came towards me and said, "Come and look at this woman." I went and found the woman lying on her back. I laid hold of her wrist and found that she was dead and the hands cold. It was too dark to see the blood about her. I thought that she had been outraged, and had died in the struggle. I was obliged to be punctual at my work, so I went on and told the other man I would send the first policeman I saw. I saw one in Church-row, just at the top of Buck's-row, who was going round calling people up, and I told him what I had seen, and I asked him to come, but he did not say whether he should come or not. He continued calling the people up, which I thought was a great shame, after I had told him the woman was dead. The woman was so cold that she must have been dead some time, and either she had been lying there, left to die, or she must have been murdered somewhere else and carried there. If she had been lying there long enough to get so cold as she was when I saw her, it shows that no policeman on the beat had been down there for a long time. If a policeman had been there he must have seen her, for she was plain enough to see. Her bonnet was lying about two feet from her head.
Also, this from 23rd
THE CORONER AND WITNESSES' FEES.
There is great indignation at the East-end over the shabby treatment of witnesses. On their summonses was printed in red letters across the subpoena:
N.B. - Bring this summons with you. All fees and expenses are required by the Act of Vic., cap. 68. sec. 1, to be advanced and paid by the coroner immediately after the termination of the inquest to such witnesses as the coroner may think fit to allow.
Mr. Paul says that after he made his statement to our representative, which appeared in Lloyd's, he was fetched up in the middle of the night by the police, and was obliged to lose a day's work the next day, for which he got nothing. He was then summoned to give evidence at the inquest on two different days, and he had to pay a man 5s. each day to do his work, or he would have lost his place. At the close of the inquest he got two shillings, being a shilling for each day. John Richardson lost four days' work, and he was paid for three days one shilling each day. Cadosh came up from Enfield, and was paid 3s. for his three days' attendance. The coroner for some time demurred to allowing him his railway fares, but eventually did so, but his loss was 1l. 8s. 9d. John Davis, who discovered the body, lost two days, and was paid 2s., Mrs Long lost two days, and she was paid 2s. Other witnesses told the same story of what they naturally consider very unjust treatment.

Morning Advertiser 4th Sept
Police constable George Maizen (sic), 55 H, said - On Friday morning last, at 20 minutes past four, I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question). I went up Buck's row and saw a policeman shining his light on the pavement. He said, "Go for an ambulance," and I at once went to the station and returned with it. I assisted to remove the body. The blood appeared fresh, and was still running from the neck of the woman.
The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross?
The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman.
Charles Allen Cross, a carman, in the employ of Messrs. Pickford, said - On Friday morning I left home at half past three. I went down Parson street, crossed Brady street, and through Buck's row. I was alone. As I got up Buck's row I saw something lying on the north side, in the gateway to a tool warehouse. It looked to me like a man's tarpaulin, but on going into the centre of the road I saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had come, so I waited for him to come up. When he came up, I said, "Come and look over here; there is a woman." We then both went over to the body. I bent over her head and touched her hand, which was cold. I said, "She is dead." The other man, after he had felt her heart, said, "Yes, she is." He then suggested that we should shift her, but I said, "No, let us go and tell a policeman." When I found her clothes were up above her knees we tried to pull them over her, but they did not seem as if they would come down. I did not notice any blood.
The Coroner - Did you not see that her throat was cut?
Witness - No; it was very dark at the time. We left together, and went up Baker's row, where we met a constable. I said to him, "There is a woman in Buck's row on the broad of her back. She is dead, or else drunk." The constable said he would go, and I left him and went to work.
The Coroner - Did you see Police constable Neil about?
Witness - No; I did not see anyone at all around except the constable I spoke to. I don't think I met anybody after I left my house till I got to the body.
Robert Paul, Forster-street, Whitechapel. -- I am a carman, and on the morning of the murder I left home just before a quarter to four. As I was passing up Buck's-row I saw a man standing in the roadway. When I got close up to him, he said, "Come and look at this woman;" and together we went across the road. There was a woman lying across the gateway, with her clothes disarranged. I felt her hands and face; they were cold. I sent the other man for a policeman.

The Star 3rd Sept
Policeman George Myzen said that at a quarter to four on Friday morning he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row. A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row. He said a woman had been found there. Witness went to the spot, found Policeman Neil there, and by his instruction witness went for the ambulance. He assisted in removing the body. He noticed blood running from the throat to the gutter. There was only one pool; it was somewhat congealed. Cross, when he spoke to witness about the affair, was accompanied by another man. Both went down Hanbury-street. The witness at the time was in the act of knocking a man up. Cross told him a policeman wanted him. He did not say anything about murder or suicide. It was not true that before he went to Buck's-row, witness continued "knocking people up." He went there immediately.

CARMAN CROSS
was the the next witness. He lived at 22 Doveton street, Cambridge-road. He was employed by Pickfords. He left home on Friday at twenty minutes past three, and got to Pickford's yard at Broad-street at four o'clock. He crossed Bradley-street into Buck's-row. He was alone. He saw something lying in front of the gateway - it looked in the distance like tarpaulin. When he got nearer he found it was a woman. At that time he heard a man coming up the street behind him; he was about 40 yards behind. Witness waited until he came up. He started as though he thought witness was going to knock him down. Witness said to him, "There's a woman." They both went to the body and stooped beside it. Witness took the woman's hand, and finding it cold said, "I believe she's dead." The other man put his hand on the breast outside the clothes - over her heart - and said, "I think she's breathing, but very little." He suggested they should shift her - set her up against the wall - but witness said, "I'm not going to touch her. Let's go on till we see a policeman and tell him." Before they left the body the other man tried to pull the clothes over the woman's knees, but they did not seem as though they would come down. Witness noticed no blood; but it was very dark. He did not see that her throat was cut. They went up Baker's-row, and saw the last witness. Witness said to him, "There's a woman lying down in Buck's-row on the broad of her back. I think she's dead or drunk." The other man said, "I believe she's dead." The policeman said, "All right."
THE OTHER MAN
left witness at the corner of Hanbury-street, and went down Corbett's-court. He was a stranger to witness, but appeared to be a carman. Witness did not see Police-constable Neil - only the constable he spoke to. The constable and the man were the only people he saw after leaving his home. From the position of the body, he thought the woman had been outraged; he did not suppose at the time she had been murdered. The other man said he would fetch a policeman, but he was behind time. Witness heard no sounds of a vehicle. He thought that had anyone left the body after he had turned into Buck's-row he would have heard them.
Answering a juryman, witness said he did not tell Constable Mizen that another policeman wanted him. After Mizen had been told there was a woman lying in Buck's-row he went out and knocked at a door. He did not go towards Buck's-row to do this.
Robert Paul no record found

The Times 4th Sept
Constable G. Mizen, 56 H, stated that at a quarter past 4 on Friday morning he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, and a man passing said "You are wanted in Baker's-row." The man, named Cross, stated that a woman had been found there. In going to the spot he saw Constable Neil, and by the direction of the latter he went for the ambulance. When Cross spoke to witness he was accompanied by another man, and both of them afterwards went down Hanbury-street. Cross simply said he was wanted by a policeman, and did not say anything about a murder having been committed. He denied that before he went to Buck's-row he continued knocking people up.
George Cross, a carman, stated that he left home on Friday morning at 20 minutes past 3, and he arrived at his work, at Broad-street, at 4 o'clock. Witness walked along Buck's-row, and saw something lying in front of the gateway like a tarpaulin. He then saw it was a woman. A man came along and witness spoke to him. They went and looked at the body. Witness, having felt one of the deceased woman's hands and finding it cold, said "I believe she is dead." The other man, having put his hand over her heart, said "I think she is breathing." He wanted witness to assist in shifting her, but he would not do so. He did not notice any blood, as it was very dark. They went to Baker's-row, saw the last witness, and told him there was a woman lying down in Buck's-row on the broad of her back. Witness also said he believed she was dead or drunk, while the other man stated he believed her to be dead. The constable replied "All right." The other man left witness at the corner of Hanbury-street and turned into Corbett's court. He appeared to be a carman, and was a stranger to the witness. At the time he did not think the woman had been murdered. Witness did not hear any sounds of a vehicle, and believed that had any one left the body after he got into Buck's-row he must have heard him.
Robert Baul [Paul], a carman, of 30, Foster-street, Whitechapel, stated he went to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields. He left home about a quarter to 4 on the Friday morning and as he was passing up Buck's-row he saw a man standing in the middle of the road. As witness approached him he walked towards the pavement, and witness stepped on to the roadway in order to pass him. He then touched witness on the shoulder, and said, "Come and look at this woman here." Witness went with him, and saw a woman lying right across the gateway. Her clothes were raised almost up to her stomach. Witness felt her hands and face, and they were cold. He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but could not, and he thought she was dead. It was very dark, and he did not notice any blood. They agreed that the best thing they could do would be to tell the first policeman they met. He could not see whether the clothes were torn, and did not feel any other part of her body except the hands and face. They looked to see if there was a constable, but one was not to be seen. While he was pulling the clothes down he touched the breast, and then fancied he felt a slight movement.
By the CORONER. - The morning was rather a chilly one. Witness and the other man walked on together until they met a policeman at the corner of Old Montagu-street, and told him what they had seen. Up to that time not more than four minutes had elapsed from the time he saw the body. He had not met any one before he reached Buck's-row, and did not see any one running away.

Woodford Times 7th Sept
Inspector Helson, of the J Division, said the deceased had on a long ulster, with large buttons, five of which were fastened. The bodice of the dress was buttoned, with the exception of two or three buttons at the neck. The stays were fastened up, and were fairly tight. The only part of the garments saturated with blood was the dress at the back of the neck; the hair at the back of the head was clotted with blood. There was no evidence of a recent washing of the parts of the body where the wounds had been inflicted in order to remove the blood. There were no cuts in the clothing; but he believed the murder was committed while the deceased was wearing her clothes. With the exception of one spot in Brady-street, there were no blood stains in the vicinity. Police-constable Mizen gave corroborative evidence.
H. Charles Cross, a carman in the employ of Messrs. Pickford & Co., said he left home about 3.30 on the morning of the murder, and he reached Pickford's at about four o' clock. He went through Brady-street into Buck's-row, and as he was walking on the right hand side of Buck's-row he saw something lying on the other side of the road. It seemed to him like a dark figure. He walked out to the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. At the same time he heard a man coming up the street, in the same direction, and on the same side of the road as himself. The witness waited until the person he had heard arrived, and then said, "Come a little nearer; there is a woman." He stood at the side of the body and took hold of the deceased's hand. The witness then said: "Why, I believe the woman's dead." The other man felt her heart, and said he believed she was dead. The witness's companion suggested that they should raise her, but the witness declined to do anything until a policeman arrived. The witness then described the position of the body. They found a constable and informed him of their discovery.
Robert Paul said he lived at 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel. On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four, and on passing up Buck's-row he saw a man in the middle of the road, who drew his attention to the murdered woman. He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing. The body was partly warm, though it was a chilly morning. He and the man discussed what was best to be done, and they decided that they ought to acquaint the first policeman they met with what they had discovered.

Fantastic, JR, thank you :-)

[Fisherman]

Hi el
Agree. This is what I've pretty much thought is the most likely way it happened.

Okay, Abby. You think that Mizen did not hear anything at all about any PC in Bucks Row from Lechmere. Then, as he arrived on the spot, there was a PC in place, and Mizen now thought "Hey, a PC - that must be what the passer-by in Bakers Row told me!".

Let´s say that Mizen heard Lechmere say "You are wanted in Bucks Row, there ´s a woman there who is either drunk or dead".

Would he not ask who it was that wanted him in such a case?

If no suggestion was offered, would he not ask the carmen which their role was?

Or would he just accept that somebody - unknown who - wanted him in Bucks Row, where a woman lay who may be dead or drunk?

If this was the case, why would he leave his beat? He was not supposed to do so.

The inescapable conclusion must surely be that he had formed his belief that a PC was in place in Bucks Row BEFORE he set off?

[Abby Normal]

Okay, Abby. You think that Mizen did not hear anything at all about any PC in Bucks Row from Lechmere. Then, as he arrived on the spot, there was a PC in place, and Mizen now thought "Hey, a PC - that must be what the passer-by in Bakers Row told me!".

Let´s say that Mizen heard Lechmere say "You are wanted in Bucks Row, there ´s a woman there who is either drunk or dead".

Would he not ask who it was that wanted him in such a case?

If no suggestion was offered, would he not ask the carmen which their role was?

Or would he just accept that somebody - unknown who - wanted him in Bucks Row, where a woman lay who may be dead or drunk?

If this was the case, why would he leave his beat? He was not supposed to do so.

The inescapable conclusion must surely be that he had formed his belief that a PC was in place in Bucks Row BEFORE he set off?

yes fish
I think that's most likely how it went down. howver, I think its also almost as possible he was told specifically that he was wanted by a cop.

we over analyze it to death, but at the time it was probably a pretty innocuous exchange.

that being said-I do place weight on Mizens testimony, which is why I give the idea of Lech actually telling him hes wanted by a cop the credence that I do.

I don't think Mizen was lying about it though for any "save his own ass" reasoning because I don't think he did anything wrong. And if he wasn't told your needed in bucks row then I think the most next likely occurrence was that lech told him he was needed specifically by a cop.

[David Orsam]

Of course I enjoyed it, David! It had immense comical qualitites, and - not least - it followed upon your ranting about how I wrote in a tortured manner. I would like to point out that I am Swedish, not British, and so I find it a bit sad to choose complaining about my shortcomings in that department instead of giving short and comprehensible answers to my questions.
If we are to compare how gifted we are languagewise, I presume your Swedish may not be up to scratch? Den som gräver en grop ĺt andra faller ofta själv däri, David.

I wasn't complaining about your shortcomings in English, Fisherman. You seem to speak it perfectly well. That's the point. The shortcoming was in the way you phrased your question which was a silly and poorly constructed one. I think you appreciate this given that you have now rephrased it!

[David Orsam]

That´s all fine, David. The one problem that arose was when you elevated it to a fact that Mizen was told that Nichols was dead or drunk. Now that you admit that no such thing can be postualted at all, I feel a lot better about things.

No, Fisherman, I did not "elevate" anything that was not a fact to a fact. Harry repeatedly stated the quote was "dead or dying" and I corrected him that the correct quote was "dead or drunk". He got his fact wrong. The fact is that the evidence was that Mizen was told the woman was "dead or drunk" not "dead or dying". That is the corrected fact to which I was directing his attention. There was no "problem" and it did not need your intervention

[David Orsam]

There is no quoting out of context, I´m afraid. That´s just you trying to evade responsibility for what you write.

Read again, David:

"... Mizen's information was that if the woman was not dead she was drunk and that is the only fact you should be considering"

All you have done is quote me out of context again!!!

If you put the above quote of mine into context, as I did in my earlier post, it is perfectly correct, requiring no comment from you.

[David Orsam]

According to you it is a fact that Mizens information was that if the woman was not dead she was drunk.

Yes, it is a fact that the evidence in the case is that this was Mizen's information.

I've already explained this, yet you continue to post as if I haven't done so. That is simply being obtuse.

[David Orsam]

You have admitted that Mizen may well only have been told that there was a woman lying in the street in Bucks Row, no deat or drunkenness mentioned, and that was what I came for and somehow managed to extract in the end. I´m pleased, as long as you don´t turn back to your old ways of claiming as a fact that Mizen WAS told about death/drunkenness.

I said to you as far back as #1183, in my response to your first post on the subject:

"Well actually I'm saying the evidence was he was told she was dead or drunk. No mention of dying."

Then, in #1187, I said:

"I'm referring to the evidence in its totality….I assure that you that I have never lost sight of your theory that Lechmere was Jack the Ripper but it's a theory and the same could be true of every other witness. I cannot discount the evidence of every witness in this case simply because they might have been the Ripper."

I also said in that same post:

"As far as the argument I am making is concerned, it doesn't matter whether Mizen was told that a woman was dead or drunk or not. If he was merely told that a woman was "lying" in Bucks Row then it makes my argument that he thought he was being summoned by an officer in Bucks Row even stronger because there was less reason for him to have left his beat."

This was all long before the post you have twice quoted out of context (i.e. #1213). So the idea that you have somehow suddenly obtained some kind of admission from me after all these posts is bizarre and, indeed, delusional.

[David Orsam]

Don´t excel in these things, David. It is unbecoming. Should I rephrase the question?
Is it possible that Mizen was never told anything about Nichols being potentially dead or drunk?

Maybe - just maybe - you knew that this was what I wanted you to answer? Crystal ball or no crystal ball?

So you DO agree with me after all that your original question was impossible to answer "yes" or "no" and needed to be rephrased. Thank you Fisherman.

[David Orsam]

The problem is that if you go around telling people that it is a fact that Mizen was told about death or drunkenness, it has a bearing on the case against Lechmere.

No, the problem is that you are getting your knickers in a twist over absolutely nothing and wasting your time and mine. Harry said Mizen was told "dead or dying". The fact of the matter, as I corrected Harry, is that [the evidence is] it was "dead or drunk". Are you really saying you didn’t understand that?

[David Orsam]

so the problem must lie elsewhere, right?

Oh yes, I know where the problem lies Fisherman.

[David Orsam]

Yes, mentioning dead or drunk will leave the door of "dying" wide open, and so Mizen should have set off double quick if he was told what Lechmere claimed he was told.

But that's not the evidence. The evidence is that he was told that she was dead or drunk. So if she was not dead then she was drunk, not dying.

You might as well say that mentioning dead or drunk left the door of "fainting" wide open or the door of "sleeping" wide open. How can Mizen take a view? All he was told – according to the evidence - was that she was dead or drunk. Option 1 – Dead. Option 2 – Drunk. There is no room for "dying" in there.

[David Orsam]

Similarly, his responses at the inquest indicate that he was highly uncertain about Nichols physical state, with his observations ranging from "dead" to "not seriously injured". On that basis-and given the fact that he may have had "twenty different thoughts in that situation even contradictory ones"-I cannot see how he could be at all certain as to what he may or may not have told PC Mizen.

Still can't see the logic.

Working out whether Nichols was dead or in a faint was a matter of interpretation (in the dark).

Telling the coroner what he said to Mizen was a matter of memory.

Two completely different things.