The Lechmere/Cross "name issue"

[Fisherman]

At least Fisherman can understand the meaning behind my mention of dying.
It is perfectly reasonable,should have least been considered by Mizen,if the word dead w as mentioned to him.

It is not often we agree, so maybe we should celebrate, Harry?
Yes, mentioning dead or drunk will leave the door of "dying" wide open, and so Mizen should have set off double quick if he was told what Lechmere claimed he was told. He should not answer "Alright" and proceed with his knocking somebody up.
Mizens behaviour as such is much more in line with him NOT having been told anything at all about the potential gravity of the errand.

[Elamarna]

So Elerama,let me ask you one question.
When w as the last time a reporter was able to stand in court,and have a reporting of a criminal matter,accepted as evidence?
The rest of your garbage I have already answered.Seems you have a problem understanding.
At least Fisherman can understand the meaning behind my mention of dying.
It is perfectly reasonable,should have least been considered by Mizen,if the word dead w as mentioned to him.

So Harry, no sensible, reasoned reply to anything, I am not surprised.


Court reporting is not "hearsay evidence", it is direct reporting, with no opinion added, It is a primary source.

We should it seems not accept any of the reported inquests as being reliable then? They are just hearsay!


The fact that you obviously have a limited grasp of how one studies history, which this is, should be evident to all.


Of course you write off the rest as what was it.....? Gargage, yes that’s it.

When one cannot answer the issues another raises that is the normal response, say its rubbish without saying why.
The truth Harry is that you appear to have a closed mind on the issue of Mizen. For whatever reason you believe he was at fault.

I on the othe rhand, believe he while being far from perfect responded in a reasonable manner at the junction of Bakers row and Hanbury street,given that he saw no reason to consider it an emergency,
However his later testimony from the scene is to me either wrongly interpreted or just unreliable, as I do not believe it can be viable from a scientific point of view, and that does lead me to question all of his testimony.

Let me be clear, if Lechmere or Paul had said he carried on knocking up and they saw him do more than one more, I would be inclined to accept it; they however do not, and there is therefore nothing to suggest he did.


Steve

[Elamarna]

a question

Hi all

one point that as always been passed over, is the often repeated comment from Paul about this spot being infamous.

Its something, we all seem to accept as a given, but is there any other evidence, police or court or newspaper records to back that up?

Was talking to a friend last night who knows nothing about the murders and they asked me the question, and had to admit I did not know.

Any responses welcome


Steve

[Jon Guy]

It is not often we agree, so maybe we should celebrate, Harry?
Yes, mentioning dead or drunk will leave the door of "dying" wide open, and so Mizen should have set off double quick if he was told what Lechmere claimed he was told. He should not answer "Alright" and proceed with his knocking somebody up.
Mizens behaviour as such is much more in line with him NOT having been told anything at all about the potential gravity of the errand.

I haven't read back through all these posts, but dead drunk was and is a commonly used phrase.
I have always thought that there was strong possibility that Mizen may have thought he had heard this.

[Elamarna]

I haven't read back through all these posts, but dead drunk was and is a commonly used phrase.
I have always thought that there was strong possibility that Mizen may have thought he had heard this.

Interesting possibility Jon, one I have never considered.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Hi all

one point that as always been passed over, is the often repeated comment from Paul about this spot being infamous.

Its something, we all seem to accept as a given, but is there any other evidence, police or court or newspaper records to back that up?

Was talking to a friend last night who knows nothing about the murders and they asked me the question, and had to admit I did not know.

Any responses welcome


Steve

The spot as such (Buckīs Row) was rather a well-kept one, with tidy, orderly houses, but the surrounding neighbourhood had a bad reputation. I remember there was a list presented many years ago here on Casebook, presenting a number of cases of violence and robbery in these surroundings.

[Elamarna]

It is not often we agree, so maybe we should celebrate, Harry?
Yes, mentioning dead or drunk will leave the door of "dying" wide open, and so Mizen should have set off double quick if he was told what Lechmere claimed he was told. He should not answer "Alright" and proceed with his knocking somebody up.
Mizens behaviour as such is much more in line with him NOT having been told anything at all about the potential gravity of the errand.

Christer,

If one disregards Paul, it is entirely possible to accept that maybe Mizen was only told a woman was lying in the street, if one however does believe Paul, that interpretation becomes harder to accept.

Either way, it would seem he did not consider it an emergency.



Steve


Steve

[Jon Guy]

one point that as always been passed over, is the often repeated comment from Paul about this spot being infamous.

Its something, we all seem to accept as a given, but is there any other evidence, police or court or newspaper records to back that up?

Was talking to a friend last night who knows nothing about the murders and they asked me the question, and had to admit I did not know.

Hi Steve

I do recall reading about one mugging incident that took place in Bucks Row, and there was also something in the papers about a couple of gangs having a ruck in the street a few days before the murder.

Also, a local is in the papers as saying that a lot of the trouble is not even reported to the police, so although it happens, there may be no record of it in the newspapers.

[Elamarna]

The spot as such (Buckīs Row) was rather a well-kept one, with tidy, orderly houses, but the surrounding neighbourhood had a bad reputation. I remember there was a list presented many years ago here on Casebook, presenting a number of cases of violence and robbery in these surroundings.

Thanks Christer,

I will go search for such, its something I had never even questioned til last night.


Steve

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve

I do recall reading about one mugging incident that took place in Bucks Row, and there was also something in the papers about a couple of gangs having a ruck in the street a few days before the murder.

Also, a local is in the papers as saying that a lot of the trouble is not even reported to the police, so although it happens, there may be no record of it in the newspapers.

Thanks Jon



Steve

[Fisherman]

I haven't read back through all these posts, but dead drunk was and is a commonly used phrase.
I have always thought that there was strong possibility that Mizen may have thought he had heard this.

I donīt think Mizen heard either dead or drunk. Thatīs because I donīt think he was told either. Keep in mind that Mizen and the carman differ on a number of points. All those points are ones where differing from Mizens view would have helped a killer.
If the severity of the errand was played down, there was a better chance that Mizen would not detain the men.
If the jury was made to believe that both carmen spoke to Mizen, it would hide a solo effort intent on lying.
If Mizen thought there was an extra PC in Bucks Row, he would never realize that the carmen were the finders. And it is not as if Lechmere told him that they were, either way we look at it: "You are wanted in Bucks Row" - nice ruse!
These things will not be entirely coincidental if you ask me.

Others think that Mizen must have gone "Oh, look, thereīs a PC in place - then surely that passer-by MUST have said told me so?" on arriving at the murder scene. That is more than a tad naïve...

[Elamarna]

I donīt think Mizen heard either dead or drunk. Thatīs because I donīt think he was told either. Keep in mind that Mizen and the carman differ on a number of points. All those points are ones where differing from Mizens view would have helped a killer.
If the severity of the errand was played down, there was a better chance that Mizen would not detain the men.
If the jury was made to believe that both carmen spoke to Mizen, it would hide a solo effort intent on lying.
If Mizen thought there was an extra PC in Bucks Row, he would never realize that the carmen were the finders. And it is not as if Lechmere told him that they were, either way we look at it: "You are wanted in Bucks Row" - nice ruse!
These things will not be entirely coincidental if you ask me.

Others think that Mizen must have gone "Oh, look, thereīs a PC in place - then surely that passer-by MUST have said told me so?" on arriving at the murder scene. That is more than a tad naïve...

not really the way I see it. for me its he is told he is "needed in bucks row," and when he gets there he sees Neil and assumes it is Neil who required him. not quite the same as you suggest. We won't agree on that so see no need to go over that all again, hope you agree.


Steve

[Jon Guy]

I donīt think Mizen heard either dead or drunk.

It`s history, Christer.
We can have opinions and make deductions, but all we can do is note what was recorded at the time, and consider the source.

Has anyone just listed all the newspaper accounts of everything Mizen, Cross and Paul testified?

[Harry D]

Anyone else bored out of their skull with this 'debate'?

There are inconsistencies and contradictions in many of the witness statements from this case. That's just the nature of the beast. I guess if someone contrived to foist guilt on one of them that would also generate umpteen pages' worth of pointless back and forth. Not sure what people are hoping to get out of this. Fisherman isn't going to suddenly raise his hands and denounce the "Mizen scam" for what it really is. Like most suspect-based Ripperologists (ugh), he's far too entrenched in his beliefs for that. Pissing in the wind.

[Fisherman]

It`s history, Christer.
We can have opinions and make deductions, but all we can do is note what was recorded at the time, and consider the source.

Has anyone just listed all the newspaper accounts of everything Mizen, Cross and Paul testified?

History, Jon? Then so is Mizens bid - that he was only told that there was a woman lying in Bucks Row, that one man, not two, spoke to him and that he was told that a second PC was in place.

Or does it only work for carmen?