Aaron or not

[Chris]

Sims(and i presume Macnaghten) discounted Kosminski for the very same reason - that he was still at large until some time after the Kelly murder.

But Macnaghten evidently wasn't aware (at least when he wrote his memoranda) that Aaron Kozminski was at liberty for more than 2 years after the murder of Kelly. He thought he had been committed to an asylum around March 1889.

Whatever idea Sims had about the date of the committal, he presumably got from Macnaghten. What he wrote was:
He was known to be a lunatic at the time of the murders, and some-time afterwards he betrayed such undoubted signs of homicidal mania that he was sent to a lunatic asylum.
[Lloyd's Weekly News, September 22, 1907]

[Natalie Severn]

Certainly if Aaron Kosminski had a troubled adolescence his family may have sent him to a private asylum.But the first record we currently know about of his admission anywhere is the one to Mile End Old Work House and the reason given was "two years insane".Now this admission was on 12th July 1890 so it states he has been insanme since 1888.He was only there for three days so it couldnt have been anything that dreadful, although since the family believed his insanity was due to pathelogic masturbation,he could have been causing them some embarrassment regarding this alleged compulsion.
Personally since Aaron was hearing voices when he was admitted later ---or at any rate evidencing the "classical features of schizophrenia" ,such as believing his "thoughts sensations and actions were being guided or controlled"- by a universal instinct,I really rather doubt any intense activity to do with actual sexual arousal was at the root of this alleged activity.The one noticeable feature that separates people with this particular personality disorder from most other personality types is their very low sex drive , although disturbing fantasies concerning sex often predominate.So I would imagine his masturbation was simply of the kind that sometimes happens with very young children when they become very anxious or disturbed a sort response to stress-nothing to do with sexual arousal more a manifestation of anxiety.

But Aaron is also very young at the time- 1890 -aged 25 and my understanding is that full blown schizophrenia is more common from the age of 29 onwards.There are probably exceptions though,depending on the degree of environmental stress a person is subjected to.
Anyway,despite having this allegedly compulsive masturbatory habit, we dont hear about Aaron behaving in anyway oddly when actually out walking the dog in March 1889 or when he was in court over the walking the dog "unmuzzled"-and his court appearance must have been a bit stressful.I am sure there would have been some reference to queer behaviour if he had been that insane or acting that out of order ,either in the court of law, walking his dog or whatever, between 1888 and 1890.And so far we havent.The full-blown onset of his illness seems to have been in February 1891 when he was detained at Colney Hatch,aged 26 years.Incidently,IF Aaron Kosminski was the man seen by Lawende then he must have looked quite a lot older than his years[Aaron was 23 in 1888 and the suspect Lawende saw appeared aged about 30].This is very strange indeed because people with schizophrenia very often look rather angelic .........viz: An oily facial skin,producing a shiny "ANGELIC" facial countenance,particularly when under undue stress and strain........Everyday Psychiatry,JD Campbell.----not exactly the best match for Inspector Cox"s City Police Suspect of the "wild looking evil countenance".....!
Norma

[jason_c]

Yes yes ,, this is agreed Nat's. But you Know as well as I do, schitzophrenia goes through phazes...hey, different from patient to patient.....

However the fact remains that Aron Kosminski would have been experiencing ;Ups' and 'downs' during this period.....

So I simply ask could Aaron have been 'in'and 'out' over a longer period than is known ie. 1889-1891?

Jeff

Sorry having difficulty typing this,,,met some of 'Colins' football mates on East farleigh bridge tonight.. and had some facial features re-arranged.....owch! ..bloody kids. It hurrts Very stiff...oowch!

Have a good laugh

The Polish Jew suspect was described by Sims as mad at the time of the murders. Im not sure if it was stated he went through periods of such madness. He seemed fairly sane during his dog muzzling offence. Less than a year or so later he was on a downward spiral for sure.

As proof of Kosminski's phases of madness this is of course conditional on him being mad for certain during the Autumn of 1888 and that he was sane from a very brief snapshot we have of him in 1889.

[jason_c]

It looks to me as if there was some kind of "official list" of suspects. You cant spend all those man hours looking for JTR and then tell your superiors you have no suspects. Police had no leads yet names needed to be provided.

These guys knew these suspects werent very good but at least they could be named. I dont think a profile of the unsub would have been acceptable back then as a sole suspect.

As the years went by maybe even some of them felt sure their hunch was right and even supported suspects from the list.

It seems like Abberline paid no attention to the list till finally Chapman came along.

It looks like leads dried up soon after MJKs death and they started picking names like Druitt. One possibly logical explanation as to why the murders stopped.

What it boils down to is that most or all of the suspects ever named as JTR really havent much going for them as suspects.

I agree with much of your post Mitch.

As the months and years went on without an obvious JtR murder im sure various individuals came to certain conclusions about suspects. They would not have used the word profiling but it wouldve occurred to the police that its hard for these murderers to stop. What made him stop would be at the forefront of any conclusions about suspects. Druitt is named largely for this reason. Sims(and i presume Macnaghten) discounted Kosminski for the very same reason - that he was still at large until some time after the Kelly murder.

[Jeff Leahy]

I cant see any reason why the family of Aaron would lie about his admission prior to 1890/91 to an asylum,private or state run.I am inclined to think what they said to the doctor ,which is recorded,was true.Therefore for Aaron to be walking Jacob Cohen"s dog in Cheapside in 1889 [presumably on a weekday] makes sense.He didnt work, but he wasnt ,at that point, so mentally ill that he needed to be sectioned.It was safe for him,in 1889, to be out and about ,in other words.

Yes yes ,, this is agreed Nat's. But you Know as well as I do, schitzophrenia goes through phazes...hey, different from patient to patient.....

However the fact remains that Aron Kosminski would have been experiencing ;Ups' and 'downs' during this period.....

So I simply ask could Aaron have been 'in'and 'out' over a longer period than is known ie. 1889-1891?

Jeff

Sorry having difficulty typing this,,,met some of 'Colins' football mates on East farleigh bridge tonight.. and had some facial features re-arranged.....owch! ..bloody kids. It hurrts Very stiff...oowch!

Have a good laugh

[Natalie Severn]

I cant see any reason why the family of Aaron would lie about his admission prior to 1890/91 to an asylum,private or state run.I am inclined to think what they said to the doctor ,which is recorded,was true.Therefore for Aaron to be walking Jacob Cohen"s dog in Cheapside in 1889 [presumably on a weekday] makes sense.He didnt work, but he wasnt ,at that point, so mentally ill that he needed to be sectioned.It was safe for him,in 1889, to be out and about ,in other words.

[Observer]

Or in and out in time to walk the dog?

Indeed

all the best

Observer

[Observer]

It just suggests to me that he was thinking of the kind of murder, not the identity of the perpetrator. Maybe "kind of murder" could mean something specific enough to exclude Coles, though.

Of course, there is that list of victims that Swanson retained (reproduced in "Scotland Yard Investigates") which includes 8 names up to McKenzie in meticulous copper-plate writing, with the details of Coles added afterwards in another hand.

Not only Coles, Mylett, and McKenzie also. I wonder if any of the more senior officers seriously looked past Kelly for victims of Jack the Ripper?

All the best

Observer

[Mitch Rowe]

Returning to the theme of whether or not Anderson had identified the Ripper and the man he had identified as the Ripper was Aaron Kosminski,John Littlechild told Sims, the journalist and writer friend of Macnaghten, that "Anderson only "thought" he knew."
And this appears to fit with the FACTS.
For if Anderson really knew who the Ripper was, then Macnaghten,Abberline and the Commissioner of the City Police, Henry Smith,would also have known,presumably?And since both Smith and Macnaghten wrote autobiographies .after 1910 ,in neither of which do we find either saying the Ripper case "was solved",then we have to ask ourselves why they would want to hide from the public such a fact-more especially when revealing that the case was solved would also be solving a nagging mystery as to whether the Ripper might still be alive.Such a revelation would bring public gratitude rather than incrimination so why hide it? Philip Sugden says in the " Complete History of Jack the Ripper" that it looks like what they were actually doing was intentionally "distancing" themselves from Anderson"s "addle headed nonsense".
And Macnaghten ,Smith and Abberline were not the only ones who didnt perceive the case as in any way "solved".
Thomas Arnold Superintendant of H division spoke of the murders as "unsolved" in 1893.Edmund Reid who served in H Division as Head of CID, spoke of the last of the murders as having been committed on Frances Coles,in February 1891 and Frances Coles was murdered AFTER Kosminski"s committal to Colney Hatch.
Later in 1903, Arnold also dismissed Macnaghten"s DRAFT account of "three suspects" which had been re-served by Griffiths as "full of inaccuracies".
And even this same Macnaghten,writing up his OFFICIAL report in 1894 states:
" MANY HOMICIDAL MANIACS WERE SUSPECTED BUT NO SHADOW OF PROOF COULD BE THROWN ON ANY ONE" so the case was definitely NOT solved by 1894.

It looks to me as if there was some kind of "official list" of suspects. You cant spend all those man hours looking for JTR and then tell your superiors you have no suspects. Police had no leads yet names needed to be provided.

These guys knew these suspects werent very good but at least they could be named. I dont think a profile of the unsub would have been acceptable back then as a sole suspect.

As the years went by maybe even some of them felt sure their hunch was right and even supported suspects from the list.

It seems like Abberline paid no attention to the list till finally Chapman came along.

It looks like leads dried up soon after MJKs death and they started picking names like Druitt. One possibly logical explanation as to why the murders stopped.

What it boils down to is that most or all of the suspects ever named as JTR really havent much going for them as suspects.

[Natalie Severn]

Its a possibility Jeff,but I wonder why it would not be mentioned to the authorities at Colney Hatch or Leavesdon at the very least? What would the family have to gain by concealing that information if they did?

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Guys

Just a quick Note with regards to scitzophenia..my brother works with schitzophrenics on a regular basis..

He would expect a long slow slide into the condition progressively getting worse....like waves that slowly get stronger until burn out/flat line..over many years...

Is there any possibility that Aaron had already been in an asylum before the excepted time frame? his family perhaps could have afforded to place him privately?

then run out of money?

[Chris]

Call me thick, but I can't grasp how the statement "no other murder of this kind" can suggest that Swanson was not acting on retrospective judgement, regarding who was and was not a Ripper victim. It's probably plain for all to see but I can't grasp it at this moment.

It just suggests to me that he was thinking of the kind of murder, not the identity of the perpetrator. Maybe "kind of murder" could mean something specific enough to exclude Coles, though.

Of course, there is that list of victims that Swanson retained (reproduced in "Scotland Yard Investigates") which includes 8 names up to McKenzie in meticulous copper-plate writing, with the details of Coles added afterwards in another hand.

[Jeff Leahy]

Call me thick, but I can't grasp how the statement "no other murder of this kind" can suggest that Swanson was not acting on retrospective judgement, regarding who was and was not a Ripper victim. It's probably plain for all to see but I can't grasp it at this moment.

Slip of the tongue regarding Cox, or did he believe the Ripper was still out and about in 1891?

all the best

Observer

Or in and out in time to walk the dog?

[Observer]

Call me thick, but I can't grasp how the statement "no other murder of this kind" can suggest that Swanson was not acting on retrospective judgement, regarding who was and was not a Ripper victim. It's probably plain for all to see but I can't grasp it at this moment.

Slip of the tongue regarding Cox, or did he believe the Ripper was still out and about in 1891?

all the best

Observer

[Chris]

We can't get into the mind of Donald Swanson, but it could well be that Swanson writing in the marginalia sometime after 1910 realised that Coles was not a Ripper victim. His statement would then lie true. Likewise with Cox and Sagar, could they have realised that Kelly was the last Ripper murder?

The only snag is that the marginalia specify "no other murder of this kind", which suggests it wasn't based on a retrospective judgment about which murders were attributable to the Ripper.

An odd feature of Cox's story is that although it was published in December 1906, he speaks of the incidents having taken place 15 years earlier.