Aaron or not

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Guys

Just a quick Note with regards to scitzophenia..my brother works with schitzophrenics on a regular basis..

He would expect a long slow slide into the condition progressively getting worse....like waves that slowly get stronger until burn out/flat line..over many years...

Is there any possibility that Aaron had already been in an asylum before the excepted time frame? his family perhaps could have afforded to place him privately?

then run out of money?

[Natalie Severn]

Its a possibility Jeff,but I wonder why it would not be mentioned to the authorities at Colney Hatch or Leavesdon at the very least? What would the family have to gain by concealing that information if they did?

[Mitch Rowe]

Returning to the theme of whether or not Anderson had identified the Ripper and the man he had identified as the Ripper was Aaron Kosminski,John Littlechild told Sims, the journalist and writer friend of Macnaghten, that "Anderson only "thought" he knew."
And this appears to fit with the FACTS.
For if Anderson really knew who the Ripper was, then Macnaghten,Abberline and the Commissioner of the City Police, Henry Smith,would also have known,presumably?And since both Smith and Macnaghten wrote autobiographies .after 1910 ,in neither of which do we find either saying the Ripper case "was solved",then we have to ask ourselves why they would want to hide from the public such a fact-more especially when revealing that the case was solved would also be solving a nagging mystery as to whether the Ripper might still be alive.Such a revelation would bring public gratitude rather than incrimination so why hide it? Philip Sugden says in the " Complete History of Jack the Ripper" that it looks like what they were actually doing was intentionally "distancing" themselves from Anderson"s "addle headed nonsense".
And Macnaghten ,Smith and Abberline were not the only ones who didnt perceive the case as in any way "solved".
Thomas Arnold Superintendant of H division spoke of the murders as "unsolved" in 1893.Edmund Reid who served in H Division as Head of CID, spoke of the last of the murders as having been committed on Frances Coles,in February 1891 and Frances Coles was murdered AFTER Kosminski"s committal to Colney Hatch.
Later in 1903, Arnold also dismissed Macnaghten"s DRAFT account of "three suspects" which had been re-served by Griffiths as "full of inaccuracies".
And even this same Macnaghten,writing up his OFFICIAL report in 1894 states:
" MANY HOMICIDAL MANIACS WERE SUSPECTED BUT NO SHADOW OF PROOF COULD BE THROWN ON ANY ONE" so the case was definitely NOT solved by 1894.

It looks to me as if there was some kind of "official list" of suspects. You cant spend all those man hours looking for JTR and then tell your superiors you have no suspects. Police had no leads yet names needed to be provided.

These guys knew these suspects werent very good but at least they could be named. I dont think a profile of the unsub would have been acceptable back then as a sole suspect.

As the years went by maybe even some of them felt sure their hunch was right and even supported suspects from the list.

It seems like Abberline paid no attention to the list till finally Chapman came along.

It looks like leads dried up soon after MJKs death and they started picking names like Druitt. One possibly logical explanation as to why the murders stopped.

What it boils down to is that most or all of the suspects ever named as JTR really havent much going for them as suspects.

[Observer]

It just suggests to me that he was thinking of the kind of murder, not the identity of the perpetrator. Maybe "kind of murder" could mean something specific enough to exclude Coles, though.

Of course, there is that list of victims that Swanson retained (reproduced in "Scotland Yard Investigates") which includes 8 names up to McKenzie in meticulous copper-plate writing, with the details of Coles added afterwards in another hand.

Not only Coles, Mylett, and McKenzie also. I wonder if any of the more senior officers seriously looked past Kelly for victims of Jack the Ripper?

All the best

Observer

[Observer]

Or in and out in time to walk the dog?

Indeed

all the best

Observer

[Natalie Severn]

I cant see any reason why the family of Aaron would lie about his admission prior to 1890/91 to an asylum,private or state run.I am inclined to think what they said to the doctor ,which is recorded,was true.Therefore for Aaron to be walking Jacob Cohen"s dog in Cheapside in 1889 [presumably on a weekday] makes sense.He didnt work, but he wasnt ,at that point, so mentally ill that he needed to be sectioned.It was safe for him,in 1889, to be out and about ,in other words.

[Jeff Leahy]

I cant see any reason why the family of Aaron would lie about his admission prior to 1890/91 to an asylum,private or state run.I am inclined to think what they said to the doctor ,which is recorded,was true.Therefore for Aaron to be walking Jacob Cohen"s dog in Cheapside in 1889 [presumably on a weekday] makes sense.He didnt work, but he wasnt ,at that point, so mentally ill that he needed to be sectioned.It was safe for him,in 1889, to be out and about ,in other words.

Yes yes ,, this is agreed Nat's. But you Know as well as I do, schitzophrenia goes through phazes...hey, different from patient to patient.....

However the fact remains that Aron Kosminski would have been experiencing ;Ups' and 'downs' during this period.....

So I simply ask could Aaron have been 'in'and 'out' over a longer period than is known ie. 1889-1891?

Jeff

Sorry having difficulty typing this,,,met some of 'Colins' football mates on East farleigh bridge tonight.. and had some facial features re-arranged.....owch! ..bloody kids. It hurrts Very stiff...oowch!

Have a good laugh

[jason_c]

It looks to me as if there was some kind of "official list" of suspects. You cant spend all those man hours looking for JTR and then tell your superiors you have no suspects. Police had no leads yet names needed to be provided.

These guys knew these suspects werent very good but at least they could be named. I dont think a profile of the unsub would have been acceptable back then as a sole suspect.

As the years went by maybe even some of them felt sure their hunch was right and even supported suspects from the list.

It seems like Abberline paid no attention to the list till finally Chapman came along.

It looks like leads dried up soon after MJKs death and they started picking names like Druitt. One possibly logical explanation as to why the murders stopped.

What it boils down to is that most or all of the suspects ever named as JTR really havent much going for them as suspects.

I agree with much of your post Mitch.

As the months and years went on without an obvious JtR murder im sure various individuals came to certain conclusions about suspects. They would not have used the word profiling but it wouldve occurred to the police that its hard for these murderers to stop. What made him stop would be at the forefront of any conclusions about suspects. Druitt is named largely for this reason. Sims(and i presume Macnaghten) discounted Kosminski for the very same reason - that he was still at large until some time after the Kelly murder.

[jason_c]

Yes yes ,, this is agreed Nat's. But you Know as well as I do, schitzophrenia goes through phazes...hey, different from patient to patient.....

However the fact remains that Aron Kosminski would have been experiencing ;Ups' and 'downs' during this period.....

So I simply ask could Aaron have been 'in'and 'out' over a longer period than is known ie. 1889-1891?

Jeff

Sorry having difficulty typing this,,,met some of 'Colins' football mates on East farleigh bridge tonight.. and had some facial features re-arranged.....owch! ..bloody kids. It hurrts Very stiff...oowch!

Have a good laugh

The Polish Jew suspect was described by Sims as mad at the time of the murders. Im not sure if it was stated he went through periods of such madness. He seemed fairly sane during his dog muzzling offence. Less than a year or so later he was on a downward spiral for sure.

As proof of Kosminski's phases of madness this is of course conditional on him being mad for certain during the Autumn of 1888 and that he was sane from a very brief snapshot we have of him in 1889.

[Natalie Severn]

Certainly if Aaron Kosminski had a troubled adolescence his family may have sent him to a private asylum.But the first record we currently know about of his admission anywhere is the one to Mile End Old Work House and the reason given was "two years insane".Now this admission was on 12th July 1890 so it states he has been insanme since 1888.He was only there for three days so it couldnt have been anything that dreadful, although since the family believed his insanity was due to pathelogic masturbation,he could have been causing them some embarrassment regarding this alleged compulsion.
Personally since Aaron was hearing voices when he was admitted later ---or at any rate evidencing the "classical features of schizophrenia" ,such as believing his "thoughts sensations and actions were being guided or controlled"- by a universal instinct,I really rather doubt any intense activity to do with actual sexual arousal was at the root of this alleged activity.The one noticeable feature that separates people with this particular personality disorder from most other personality types is their very low sex drive , although disturbing fantasies concerning sex often predominate.So I would imagine his masturbation was simply of the kind that sometimes happens with very young children when they become very anxious or disturbed a sort response to stress-nothing to do with sexual arousal more a manifestation of anxiety.

But Aaron is also very young at the time- 1890 -aged 25 and my understanding is that full blown schizophrenia is more common from the age of 29 onwards.There are probably exceptions though,depending on the degree of environmental stress a person is subjected to.
Anyway,despite having this allegedly compulsive masturbatory habit, we dont hear about Aaron behaving in anyway oddly when actually out walking the dog in March 1889 or when he was in court over the walking the dog "unmuzzled"-and his court appearance must have been a bit stressful.I am sure there would have been some reference to queer behaviour if he had been that insane or acting that out of order ,either in the court of law, walking his dog or whatever, between 1888 and 1890.And so far we havent.The full-blown onset of his illness seems to have been in February 1891 when he was detained at Colney Hatch,aged 26 years.Incidently,IF Aaron Kosminski was the man seen by Lawende then he must have looked quite a lot older than his years[Aaron was 23 in 1888 and the suspect Lawende saw appeared aged about 30].This is very strange indeed because people with schizophrenia very often look rather angelic .........viz: An oily facial skin,producing a shiny "ANGELIC" facial countenance,particularly when under undue stress and strain........Everyday Psychiatry,JD Campbell.----not exactly the best match for Inspector Cox"s City Police Suspect of the "wild looking evil countenance".....!
Norma

[Chris]

Sims(and i presume Macnaghten) discounted Kosminski for the very same reason - that he was still at large until some time after the Kelly murder.

But Macnaghten evidently wasn't aware (at least when he wrote his memoranda) that Aaron Kozminski was at liberty for more than 2 years after the murder of Kelly. He thought he had been committed to an asylum around March 1889.

Whatever idea Sims had about the date of the committal, he presumably got from Macnaghten. What he wrote was:
He was known to be a lunatic at the time of the murders, and some-time afterwards he betrayed such undoubted signs of homicidal mania that he was sent to a lunatic asylum.
[Lloyd's Weekly News, September 22, 1907]

[Chris]

But the first record we currently know about of his admission anywhere is the one to Mile End Old Work House and the reason given was "two years insane".Now this admission was on 12th July 1890 so it states he has been insanme since 1888.He was only there for three days so it couldnt have been anything that dreadful, although since the family believed his insanity was due to pathelogic masturbation,he could have been causing them some embarrassment regarding this alleged compulsion.

As Sugden pointed out (p. 523), the alleged "two years insane" is a misreading of the record in the workhouse register. It actually reads "Qy Insane" (i.e. "Query Insane").

In the records of his further visit to the workhouse and his committal to Colney Hatch in February 1891, the "duration of existing attack" is initially stated to be 6 months, but this is later corrected to 6 years.

I think the first reference to masturbation occurs in February 1891.

[Christine]

We don't know Aaron was schizophrenic. No one can diagnose schizophrenia in someone they haven't met, and haven't tested for various other conditions such as drug addiction, brain damage due to drug use or otherwise, bipolar disorder, severe depression, any number of physical conditions, autism, or ADHD. And there are many "schizotypal" disorders, where a person exhibits some symptoms of schizophrenia (such as believing God is talking to him) but is otherwise fairly normal. These may or may not be a mild form of schizophrenia.

At best we can say that for some portion of his life he exhibited schizotypal behaviors. If its true that he had long periods of more or less normal functioning without constant care, that may indicate he wasn't schizophrenic. Of course we don't know how much care he had, because it would have been mostly administered by his family. And plenty of schizophrenics just end up wandering the streets until they get sick and die of pneumonia--or the family takes them back in.

As has been pointed out, full blown schizophrenics are not usually dangerous because they can't really form and carry out coherent plans, being hampered by voices telling them what to do and the like. But it's not hard to find serial killers with organic brain damage, which can also cause schizotypal behaviors.

I'm not saying that any of this is proven, or even likely. I'm just pointing out that if you're speculating on Aaron's behavior, it's easy to come with scenarios that fit what little we know for sure, and still fit a wide range of people, including violent serial killers.

[Natalie Severn]

Christine,
I have been posting on this site for quite a long time now and have previously explained the background to my understanding of schizophrenia.My mother worked for twenty years in a large Psychiatric Hospital in the North West as an Art Therapist.She worked almost exclusively with people suffering from schizophrenia and was supported in that work at all times by Consultant Psychiatrists as well as psychologists and Occupational Therapists.I also worked in that department,for a much briefer time period, with people suffering from the illness and attended lectures and seminars on the illness and its manifestations.So I am aware of the ways in which it can manifest itself.
I do not dispute that schizophrenia can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist after consultation with the patient.That is really taken for granted in this discussion I would have thought,and as you would know if you had read my previous posts from some time back.Neither do I dispute that many people who have suffered from schizophrenia did not become violent,even in the past before modern drugs could keep the worst of the illness under control.
Nontheless when Aaron Kosminski was admitted to Colney Hatch, his case notes contain the following statement: "He declares that he is guided and that his movements are altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind,he says that he knows the movements of all mankind,he refuses food from others because he is told to do so,and eats out of the gutter for the same reason"-dated 6th February 1891 .
There are typical schizophrenic psychosis and being "deluded","hearing voices", "being guided and having ones movements controlled by an outside force" are pretty characteristic -----and very common moreover.
Also ,schizophrenia does have a distinct psychopathology and a distinct course.It can therefore be distinguished from the other mental illnesses.Auditory hallucinations in particular are actually "heard", and Schizophrenia remains the most prevalent and pernicious of all mental illnesses.
The reason we are interested in the type of illness that progressed the way it did during the course of Aaron"s incarceration in lunatic asylums for some 30 years, is to try to determine whether or not his pathology in any way matches up with the serial killer"s who was given the name Jack the Ripper.
And ,actually,it is possible.Because,like it or not,in the name of some fanatical 'calling" or "ideal"or in obediance to some "command killing" the paranoid schizophrenic can convince themselves that bloodshed is trivial and some pretty horrendous murders we read about in the press or on TV have been committed by this type of personality.
But what concerns us here,and what we do not know ofcourse, is whether the type of illness Aaron Kosminski had was "paranoid schizophrenia" or whether he simply had a form of schizophrenia, because the difference is important.To me it looks like he did suffer from delusions and schizophrenic psychosis over many many years,and there are some hints of paranoia in his concerns about his food and water -but whether or not he was actually paranoid is much less certain.Anyway,I would be interested to know whether you are a practitioner yourself Christine?
Best
Norma

[Robert]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

Robert