Aaron or not

[Chris]

Didn't his mother arrive on the scene c.1890/1? It strikes me that this might be enough to tip him over the edge (and I'm not joking here).

We don't know exactly when Aaron's mother came to England, but she hasn't been found in the 1891 census - and she certainly wasn't in the household of Morris and Matilda, with whom she lived at least between 1894 and 1901 - so we assume it was later than that (and therefore after Aaron went to Colney Hatch).

[Observer]

Back reading the various posts here in this thread, I would tend to say that the Kosminski referred to by Macnagten, and Swanson, and the Low class Jew referred to by Anderson is Aaron Kosminski.

If this is the case, can I ask if anyone really believes he is Jack the Ripper? Personnaly I do not believe he is Jack the Ripper.

all the best

Observer

[Robert]

Didn't his mother arrive on the scene c.1890/1? It strikes me that this might be enough to tip him over the edge (and I'm not joking here).

[Mitch Rowe]

"But having worked with both schizophrenic and manic depressive patients it manifests itself quite differently from schizophrenia -for example it is not characterised by visual or auditory hallucination,but rather by mood swings."

What they are describing are severe cases of mania wich can cause psychosis. Most BP sufferers will never get to that point. Now if Kosminski actually suffered from BP disorder and he happened to be so manic that he was psychotic and then was misdiagnosed as being schitzophrenic then that would be interesting!

In a manic state senses can be heightened beyond that of a normal human being. The thinking process can be sped up many fold. Insomnia can develop and often does. The person has grandiose thoughts and may take risks no normal person would ever think of taking.

In short... Everything a person would need to be able to do what the Ripper did and get away with it. As long as the mania wasnt too severe. Then the Ripper may not care if he is discovered or lose control.

Wich is why Im not too keen on JTR having any sort of severe mental illness.
But then again look what Jim Jones could achieve. And that guy was the text book example of psychotic!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Chris

Then I suppose that would tend to suggest that Aaron was not a paranoid schizophrenic?

Robert

Hi Robert and Chris,
The following is taken directly from the Oxford Concise Medical Dictionary.2000

Schizophrenia
a severe mental disorder or group of disorders characterized by a disintegration of the processes of thinking,of contact with reality,and of emotional responsiveness.Delusions and hallucinations,[especially of voices] are usual features,and the patient usually feels that his thoughts,sensations and actions are controlled by,or shared with,others.He becomes socially withdrawn and loses energy and initiative.The main types of schizophrenia are SIMPLE,in which increasing social withdrawal and personal ineffectiveness are the major changes;hebephrenic,which starts in adolescence or young adulthood [see hebephrenia];paranoid,characterized by prominent delusions;catatonic,with marked motor disturbances.The latter form is now rare.
Schizophrenia commonly but not inevitably runs a progressive course.The prognosis has improved with anti -psychotic drugs and with vigorous psychological and social management and rehabilation.THERE ARE STRONG GENETIC FACTORS in the causation.and environmental stress can precipitate illness.

regarding Hebephrenia it has this to say:-the most prominent features are disordered thinking;inappropriate emotions with thoughtless,cheerfulness,apathy or querulousness;and silly behaviour.It typically starts in adolescence or young adulthood.Social and occupational rehabilation are the most important therapies etc etc

The other major illness which sometimes requires sectioned admittance to a hospital is

MANIC DEPRESSIVE PSYCHOSIS [bipolar disorder]"a severe mental illness causing repeated episodes of DEPRESSION, MANIA or both.These episodes can be precipitated by upsetting events but are out of proportion to these causes.THERE IS GENERALLY A GENETICLY INHERITED PREDISPOSITION ......."

But having worked with both schizophrenic and manic depressive patients it manifests itself quite differently from schizophrenia -for example it is not characterised by visual or auditory hallucination,but rather by mood swings.

Hope this is helpful,
Best
Norma

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Then I suppose that would tend to suggest that Aaron was not a paranoid schizophrenic?

Robert

[Chris]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

One of the questions asked when Aaron was committed was "Whether any near relative has been afflicted with insanity". The answer given in the "Statement of particulars" was "Not any known" [MA StBG/ME/107/8, no 1558]. In the Colney Hatch records this metamorphosed into "Not known" [H12/CH/B13/39].

We haven't seen any evidence of mental problems in the family, before or after Aaron's time, apart from those associated with old age.

[Natalie Severn]

No Roger I dont find it curious . Anderson"s memoirs,or memories, contain numbers of "inaccuracies".He wrote that "having decided to spend the last week of his "holiday"-in Paris,he arrived in the French capital on the night of the double murder,and that when the next day"s post brought an urgent summons for him to return to London,he did so.But a letter he wrote to one of the dailies in April 1910 states he was on his way home from Paris on the night of the double event.He was not.He did not leave Paris until 4th October-so actually both memories cited are inaccurate. According to Michael Davitt"s notebook Anderson was actually conferring with Pigott the forger of the Parnell letters and his co -writer of "Black Propaganda" for The Times, about last minute attempts to avert Pigott"s "exposure" at the Special Commission.At any rate they both departed from Paris on the same day October 4th,having both been there a week.
Some of the above are simple examples of "inaccuracy" on Anderson"s part. More serious ones exist such as his assertion that his policy of warning prostitutes that the police would not protect them ended the street murders in the Jack the Ripper series after the Double Event.That the house to house inquiry led the police to believe the Ripper was a low class Jew.That subsequently Kosminski was identified by the "only person to have ever had a good view of the murderer;That although the witness refused to testify against Kosminski the identification was conclusive and solved the case; that the identity of the original Jack the Ripper letter was identified conclusively as that of a London Journalist who Anderson was able to name.
Every one of these assertions is incorrect, and can be proven to be incorrect from contemporary and later evidence .
Best
Norma

[rjpalmer]

For if Anderson really knew who the Ripper was, then Macnaghten,Abberline and the Commissioner of the City Police, Henry Smith,would also have known,presumably?

Natalie, may I ask for your patience for one moment?

I mean this in the nicest possibly way, but it seems to me you're content with asking the easy questions. Why go over this same ground, when you already know how you're going to answer?

Smith obviously thought Anderson was full of it. So did Reid, Littlechild, etc. etc. Unless you're preaching to the uninitiated, we all know this.

So ask youself the next series of questions. For instance, if Anderson knew that Reid, Littlechild, Smith, Abberline, Macnaghten, etc. etc. were all alive and still drawing breath in 1910, why didn't he give a damn that they would contradict him? Why publish such an audacious story knowing full well that these other men were in a position to challenge it? Senility, or something else?

At the very least, he is confident that he can pull off the impression that an Assistant Commissioner of the Met is in a position to know something that his underlyings don't.

Do you not find that, even on a human level, the least bit curious?

[Robert]

Thanks Nats.

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

Robert

In short,yes Robert----its my understanding that if someone suffers from any type of schizophrenia the likelihood is that some other members of the family could have or have had, the same gentic make up and the same susceptibility,given certain similar environmental triggers.
Best

[Robert]

Nats, to what extent would paranoid schizophrenia be genetic? I'm thinking here of the excellent work being undertaken by certain members of these boards to trace past and present members of Aaron's family tree. Should we expect to see some manifestations of paranoid schizophrenia in that tree if Aaron indeed suffered with it?

Robert

[Natalie Severn]

Christine,
I have been posting on this site for quite a long time now and have previously explained the background to my understanding of schizophrenia.My mother worked for twenty years in a large Psychiatric Hospital in the North West as an Art Therapist.She worked almost exclusively with people suffering from schizophrenia and was supported in that work at all times by Consultant Psychiatrists as well as psychologists and Occupational Therapists.I also worked in that department,for a much briefer time period, with people suffering from the illness and attended lectures and seminars on the illness and its manifestations.So I am aware of the ways in which it can manifest itself.
I do not dispute that schizophrenia can only be diagnosed by a psychiatrist after consultation with the patient.That is really taken for granted in this discussion I would have thought,and as you would know if you had read my previous posts from some time back.Neither do I dispute that many people who have suffered from schizophrenia did not become violent,even in the past before modern drugs could keep the worst of the illness under control.
Nontheless when Aaron Kosminski was admitted to Colney Hatch, his case notes contain the following statement: "He declares that he is guided and that his movements are altogether controlled by an instinct that informs his mind,he says that he knows the movements of all mankind,he refuses food from others because he is told to do so,and eats out of the gutter for the same reason"-dated 6th February 1891 .
There are typical schizophrenic psychosis and being "deluded","hearing voices", "being guided and having ones movements controlled by an outside force" are pretty characteristic -----and very common moreover.
Also ,schizophrenia does have a distinct psychopathology and a distinct course.It can therefore be distinguished from the other mental illnesses.Auditory hallucinations in particular are actually "heard", and Schizophrenia remains the most prevalent and pernicious of all mental illnesses.
The reason we are interested in the type of illness that progressed the way it did during the course of Aaron"s incarceration in lunatic asylums for some 30 years, is to try to determine whether or not his pathology in any way matches up with the serial killer"s who was given the name Jack the Ripper.
And ,actually,it is possible.Because,like it or not,in the name of some fanatical 'calling" or "ideal"or in obediance to some "command killing" the paranoid schizophrenic can convince themselves that bloodshed is trivial and some pretty horrendous murders we read about in the press or on TV have been committed by this type of personality.
But what concerns us here,and what we do not know ofcourse, is whether the type of illness Aaron Kosminski had was "paranoid schizophrenia" or whether he simply had a form of schizophrenia, because the difference is important.To me it looks like he did suffer from delusions and schizophrenic psychosis over many many years,and there are some hints of paranoia in his concerns about his food and water -but whether or not he was actually paranoid is much less certain.Anyway,I would be interested to know whether you are a practitioner yourself Christine?
Best
Norma

[Christine]

We don't know Aaron was schizophrenic. No one can diagnose schizophrenia in someone they haven't met, and haven't tested for various other conditions such as drug addiction, brain damage due to drug use or otherwise, bipolar disorder, severe depression, any number of physical conditions, autism, or ADHD. And there are many "schizotypal" disorders, where a person exhibits some symptoms of schizophrenia (such as believing God is talking to him) but is otherwise fairly normal. These may or may not be a mild form of schizophrenia.

At best we can say that for some portion of his life he exhibited schizotypal behaviors. If its true that he had long periods of more or less normal functioning without constant care, that may indicate he wasn't schizophrenic. Of course we don't know how much care he had, because it would have been mostly administered by his family. And plenty of schizophrenics just end up wandering the streets until they get sick and die of pneumonia--or the family takes them back in.

As has been pointed out, full blown schizophrenics are not usually dangerous because they can't really form and carry out coherent plans, being hampered by voices telling them what to do and the like. But it's not hard to find serial killers with organic brain damage, which can also cause schizotypal behaviors.

I'm not saying that any of this is proven, or even likely. I'm just pointing out that if you're speculating on Aaron's behavior, it's easy to come with scenarios that fit what little we know for sure, and still fit a wide range of people, including violent serial killers.

[Chris]

But the first record we currently know about of his admission anywhere is the one to Mile End Old Work House and the reason given was "two years insane".Now this admission was on 12th July 1890 so it states he has been insanme since 1888.He was only there for three days so it couldnt have been anything that dreadful, although since the family believed his insanity was due to pathelogic masturbation,he could have been causing them some embarrassment regarding this alleged compulsion.

As Sugden pointed out (p. 523), the alleged "two years insane" is a misreading of the record in the workhouse register. It actually reads "Qy Insane" (i.e. "Query Insane").

In the records of his further visit to the workhouse and his committal to Colney Hatch in February 1891, the "duration of existing attack" is initially stated to be 6 months, but this is later corrected to 6 years.

I think the first reference to masturbation occurs in February 1891.