Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Errata]

*edited*

Aaron is listed as a Hairdresser. And Trades were very important to the Kalish community it defined who they were. ANd Aaron had not worked 'At his trade' in years. He been sort of employed as a 'Night Watchman' odd job man by his community. This community owned several shops in the Area, including Abraham's who owned a Butcher premises in Aldgate (Not occupied at Night)

People with mental Health problems often have problems Sleeping so who better to work as a Night Watchman…let himself in, check everything is OK, then onto the next shop in the area. (might even need to borrow a GUARD DOG? from time to time)

He'd been asked to keep watch, and took his new job very seriously, obsessively, he kept watch, watching everyone protecting his premises

'He knows the movement of all man kind' literally. He's an odd bod but a familiar site to the bobbies doing their beats at night and he watches them aswell.

And then he started to get pissed off. Because those damn whores kept braking into the back yard and plying their trade. He knew who they were, the cheek of it coming and going at night while know one else could see. He'd teach them. He'd protect his community.

This explains how Jack disappears without trace. You simply have to know where the Kalish community kept there shops and who was the Sole occupant at night….

And that all MacNaughten ever knew about Kosminski. He was never caught in the act, accept may be having a +ank.

Once locked in a Private Asylum in Surrey (reason given Masturbation), he wouldn't need to have been committed. Holloway Asylum took on Boarders. They were run under a system called 'Alienism' which proscribed fresh air and quite and owned a number of Convalescent Seaside Homes (I wonder if one of them might have been called Australia) He was sent by us with difficulty.They were only ever designed for short stay patients (About a Year) boarders could come and go for family holidays. SHort satays as required give the family (Wealthy Taylors) a rest, It was all very enlightened.

And Araon was away from his stressful job, keeping an eye on his communities shops making sure they were safe from these awful women.

Remember the attack described by Schwartz? Where was Stride Standing? In his gateway… I'm sure he had words about that…bloody gentile women tress passing. It was personal.

`MacNaughten of course never knew what happened to this suspect, whether he was alive or dead because there wasn't really anything to go on. Anderson on the other hand had Matida Kosminski in his office (Crawford-Montagu) after the failed attempt to place him in an Asylum in July 1890.. So he was positive who JAck was because his own family betrayed him, thats how he knows about the community.

He'd been placed back in Surrey by this time…get him out before theres another murder. remember what happened when he came home in July 1889? A deal is struck. Perhaps Swanson thought they might get a conviction, possibly even a confession (Broadmore), but when it became obvious he was totally insane they all help him get into the public asylum (The Hatch). From there he can't escape or be let out again.

We know Anderson kept check on Patients at Colney Hatch, there are letters about other patients there from him. WHen he was transferred to Leavesdon 1893-4 there was a confusion (Possibly Dr Seward with Cohen?) and either Swanson or Anderson were told he was dead.

He may aswell have been dead by this time. Catatonic State is a terrible waisting illness that slowly destroys someone, much like debenture the person is lost.totally lost.

Just an idea

Yours Jeff

Let me just start by saying the human brain is like dark matter. We know how it works, but we have no idea how it works.

So that being said, everything you just recounted could be true. There are little things we know that make it unlikely, but to the best of our knowledge nothing is impossible here.

But one of the things we know about psychosis, whatever the cause, is that they can't play poker. The only way a person can stay in a delusional state is if the frontal lobe essentially shuts down. In schizophrenia, it's easy because the frontal lobe is the first part of the brain to fail. The first symptoms are always frontal lobe symptoms. The inability to organize, plan, make decisions, multi task.. all goes. Even the social problems inherent in early schizophrenia are because people stop being able to respond appropriately in conversation, or concentrate on the topic at hand. It makes them weird, they get self conscious and they start to isolate. It's why schizophrenics rarely get diagnosed until something gets out of hand. They have problems interacting.

If a schizophrenic has a problem with you, you know about it. Immediately. They do not have a filter. If you've ever had a conversation with a full blown schizophrenic, you know it's like a perfect moment of "stream of consciousnesses" thinking. As often as not, you don't have to be there for that conversation. They think it, they say it. They act on it. It's why schizophrenics are so dangerous to themselves in a delusional state. But this is also true for most disorders that cause delusions. Bipolar people can have a psychotic break, creating delusions and hallucinations both while manic and while depressed. The neurochemical flood or dearth shuts down the frontal lobe.

Think about the fight or flight response. It's a neurochemical flood designed to save your life. People don't always react the right way. If you are about to get hit by a bus, logic clearly dictates that "flight" is the way to go. But logic has been shut down. You might react with "fight" which gets you hit by a bus. And if you've ever seen videos of people getting scared badly or something, you can see that some of them crouch into a combat stance as soon as they recognize the danger. The chemicals decide for us. Fear and anger typically get you fight, straight fear gets you flight. But at no point is the frontal lobe involved in that decision. It's shut down. Logic will get you killed.

Which is why you hear stories about a man who dearly loves his wife pull her in front of him when confronted by an attacker. We think that most men step in front of their wives in these situations. They don't. Mostly they freeze until they get more information. But the initial chemical storm doesn't protect anyone but the individual. Once the initial surge passes, the frontal lobe comes back online and a man may choose to step in front of his wife. But the guy who turned her into a human shield simply didn't freeze like most people. He went into the only "flight" he was capable of.

So when the frontal lobe is offline, more behaviors are possible, like a non violent man throwing a punch. But planning or plotting is off the table.

If a delusional person killed these women, he did not plan it, and he did not hide his intentions. If they pissed him off, his reaction would be immediate. There would be no plan, likely no stalking, and no subterfuge. It would be like a horror movie where the victim sees a knife wielding maniac running at them from across the cemetery. A schizophrenic would have to be lucid to be the Ripper.

Now there is the rare phenomenon of delusion persistence where the subject of a delusion cannot be disproven during lucidity. For example, let's say someone lives in China and believes that the government is persecuting him for his beliefs. When he is lucid, the reality is that he does have those beliefs, and the government would persecute him for them if they found out. The only difference between reality and the delusion is whether or not the government knows about him, and that is impossible to prove or disprove. He may well continue to act the way he did in his delusion because he cannot prove it false. Nothing in his life would allow him to know that it isn't true. It's rare, because delusions almost never so closely match a person's reality. And even when they do, most can be disproven. You can see your doctor and know you don't have a vestigial twin or whatever. But you can't prove people aren't out to get you, so it's paranoid fantasies that are the most likely to persist.

But even knowing that this happens, and I can think of any number of things that might persist in Kosminski's delusions, I don't know how killing prostitutes and taking organs fixes that problem. I mean, the guy's diet made him deathly ill. I don't see how he could prove to his own satisfaction that he wasn't dying when he was lucid. So he might have kept that belief when rational. But that doesn't translate into mutilating prostitutes. Killing a doctor who told him he was fine, maybe. Maybe. But a lucid belief in a delusional disease does not result in a delusional cure. If the guy is lucid, his behavior makes sense. Even if one belief is untrue.

Kosminski's delusions cannot make him the Ripper. I suppose he could be the Ripper despite the delusions, if he was killing when he was mentally fit. But there's nothing that really supports that conclusion. If his delusions are what make people think he did it, the reality is that his mental illness rules him out.

[Batman]

OK, I think your correct about this. Thats why I've thrown the rule book out the window and started again. And that Rule book starts with what MAcnaughten actually knows and what he doesn't know and why he prefers Druit.

Sorry what's the evidence he prefers Druitt? Isn't he just listing 3 cases that he thinks makes a better case than the suggestions being put to him. In fact out of those 3 cases I think he had to be aware that Ostrog was in jail, Druitt was just a case of a drowned man at the time the murders ceased and Kozminski the nutty Jew to match some profiling that was floating around. I don't think he was saying "my first preference is Druitt" but here are 3 better examples than the one you gave. In fact did he have a good suspect in mind at all? I think not.

I am not even sure if Swanson believed Kozminski JtR, but was simply the person they had some issues around identification and Jews who wouldn't testify against him and wanted to clarify that it was Kozminski.

Abberline seems the only one who really puts his chips in and he did it with Chapman.

[Jeff Leahy]

Whatever he was working from, the fact remains that Mcnaughton did not think it was Kosminski. He thought it was Druitt. Had McNaughton read the entirety of Kosminski's jacket, or at least what was available at the time, Kosminski would be a very hard suspect to resist. Given what these people thought of mental illness. A literal raving loony with what would look like a bad temper and complete moral abandonment would have been everyone's first choice. Kosminski was manic and terrified. I think McNaughton got a memo. He certainly didn't get enough information to change his mind from Druitt, and the information was there to be had. He would have been wrong, since no one understood Kosminski's behavior and didn't understand what was driving it, but he would have changed his mind I think.

OK, I think your correct about this. Thats why I've thrown the rule book out the window and started again. And that Rule book starts with what MAcnaughten actually knows and what he doesn't know and why he prefers Druit.

It starts with the death of MJK. Because thats when Cox and Sagar get on the trial of a suspect…Kosminski… And what MAcNaughten knows about Kosminski is what they say about him, in the file MAcNaughten reads, is that he is a man who occupies several premises, he takes late walks abroad and is placed in a Private Hospital in Surrey (Possibly named Australia House or Ward) this man has a strong hatred of women.

MacNaughten knows nothing about the later positive ID at the Private Asylum Seaside Home (Called Australia) Nothing about eating from the gutter or his later catatonic state. Why should he? He only knows what happened up to the time he enter the Asylum in March 1889.

So why we are speculating I'll throw this into the mix. I believe everybody has been wrong about the murders for years. That they are Not random attacks but very personal and Aaron was very pissed off with the women he killed….and heres why.

Aaron is listed as a Hairdresser. And Trades were very important to the Kalish community it defined who they were. ANd Aaron had not worked 'At his trade' in years. He been sort of employed as a 'Night Watchman' odd job man by his community. This community owned several shops in the Area, including Abraham's who owned a Butcher premises in Aldgate (Not occupied at Night)

People with mental Health problems often have problems Sleeping so who better to work as a Night Watchman…let himself in, check everything is OK, then onto the next shop in the area. (might even need to borrow a GUARD DOG? from time to time)

He'd been asked to keep watch, and took his new job very seriously, obsessively, he kept watch, watching everyone protecting his premises

'He knows the movement of all man kind' literally. He's an odd bod but a familiar site to the bobbies doing their beats at night and he watches them aswell.

And then he started to get pissed off. Because those damn whores kept braking into the back yard and plying their trade. He knew who they were, the cheek of it coming and going at night while know one else could see. He'd teach them. He'd protect his community.

This explains how Jack disappears without trace. You simply have to know where the Kalish community kept there shops and who was the Sole occupant at night….

And that all MacNaughten ever knew about Kosminski. He was never caught in the act, accept may be having a +ank.

Once locked in a Private Asylum in Surrey (reason given Masturbation), he wouldn't need to have been committed. Holloway Asylum took on Boarders. They were run under a system called 'Alienism' which proscribed fresh air and quite and owned a number of Convalescent Seaside Homes (I wonder if one of them might have been called Australia) He was sent by us with difficulty.They were only ever designed for short stay patients (About a Year) boarders could come and go for family holidays. SHort satays as required give the family (Wealthy Taylors) a rest, It was all very enlightened.

And Araon was away from his stressful job, keeping an eye on his communities shops making sure they were safe from these awful women.

Remember the attack described by Schwartz? Where was Stride Standing? In his gateway… I'm sure he had words about that…bloody gentile women tress passing. It was personal.

`MacNaughten of course never knew what happened to this suspect, whether he was alive or dead because there wasn't really anything to go on. Anderson on the other hand had Matida Kosminski in his office (Crawford-Montagu) after the failed attempt to place him in an Asylum in July 1890.. So he was positive who JAck was because his own family betrayed him, thats how he knows about the community.

He'd been placed back in Surrey by this time…get him out before theres another murder. remember what happened when he came home in July 1889? A deal is struck. Perhaps Swanson thought they might get a conviction, possibly even a confession (Broadmore), but when it became obvious he was totally insane they all help him get into the public asylum (The Hatch). From there he can't escape or be let out again.

We know Anderson kept check on Patients at Colney Hatch, there are letters about other patients there from him. WHen he was transferred to Leavesdon 1893-4 there was a confusion (Possibly Dr Seward with Cohen?) and either Swanson or Anderson were told he was dead.

He may aswell have been dead by this time. Catatonic State is a terrible waisting illness that slowly destroys someone, much like debenture the person is lost.totally lost.

Just an idea

Yours Jeff

[Errata]

Hi Errata

I think the writer would have been OK with the patient being constrained if he were actually going to injure himself, e.g. gouge his own eyes out etc. I think here the self-abuse is masturbation, and the dirty habits might conceivably be something like daubing the walls with excrement or urinating on the floor :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...yam-hyams.html

I think if we are blunt then there were a ton of reasons given to restrain patients, and most of them revolve around a total lack of patient care, not necessarily the result of some kind of provocation.

That the high minded doctor objects is not strange, but nor is it indicative of the offenses in question. This is when doctors started feeling as though there had to be more to treating the mentally ill.

But just remember. He didn't think punching nurses warranted being restrained, I'm not sure he would consider self harm a good enough reason either. His ideals were a little loftier than safety would ultimately allow in the end. Though back then restraints could be a lifetime sentence, so if nothing else, introducing the idea of "temporary" restraints was a good thing.

We still restrain compulsive masturbators if their frequency is such that an injury is likely. Degloving can occur in these situations, and for the love of god don't google that, nobody needs to see that. And we restrain violent people, and those who self harm. Some underfunded hospitals get quite a bit of use out of oven mitts during daylight hours, so the principal still stands. We still do it. We just only do it in very extreme cases. For everything else isolation and intense therapy typically is the solution.

And I promise you chaining someone to a bed does not make it easier to clean up body fluids. Better on the wall than on the only mattress, the bed, the floor, the patient, etc. It's like 9 times more work.

[Robert]

On the other hand this item from the Western Mail Aug 28 1880 suggests that 'self-abuse' could be used non-sexually, or why specify sexual?

[Robert]

.....

[Robert]

Hi Errata

I think the writer would have been OK with the patient being constrained if he were actually going to injure himself, e.g. gouge his own eyes out etc. I think here the self-abuse is masturbation, and the dirty habits might conceivably be something like daubing the walls with excrement or urinating on the floor :

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rn-hyam-hyams.html

[Errata]

Hi Errata

This snippet from a long letter in the Times Aug 22nd 1888 suggests that 'self-abuse' did mean masturbation, though one can argue as to whether Aaron practised this compulsively or indiscreetly :

Actually in this article I think "dirty habits" meant masturbation. I'm hard pressed to think of anything that could possibly mean that would result in being put in restraints.

The reasons for restraint are listed as destructiveness, dirty habits, self abuse, and violence (hitting the nurses). It makes sense if we see destructiveness as pretty literal, meaning destroying furniture, breaking things, smashing things etc.

Dirty habits should be masturbation. I mean, my smoking is a dirty habit, but nobody is going to me in shackles for it, so there aren't a lot of other interpretations.

Self abuse would be self mutilation, or self destructive behavior. Cutting, hair pulling,scratching, picking, I'm sure Pica gets one put in restraints.

And clearly hitting people is not okay.

I'm not arguing that that nobody uses euphemisms,that everything is absolutely literal. Of course there are euphemisms. I just don't think "self abuse" in a psychiatric jacket is a euphemism. I don't think it requires translation.

Now if there was a court case involving masturbation I would imagine that a lawyer in an open court would use every euphemism under the sun. But medical records don't work like that.

[Robert]

Hi Errata

This snippet from a long letter in the Times Aug 22nd 1888 suggests that 'self-abuse' did mean masturbation, though one can argue as to whether Aaron practised this compulsively or indiscreetly :

[Errata]

I don't 'think' Dr LArs Dabidson based his conclusions so much on the various symptoms but more a practical conclusion about his age and physical timing a decent into catatonic state. Please note I'm not a psychiatrist but a documentary film maker with an interest in the subject.

Which I too think is very seductive for a conclusion of schizophrenia. The problem is of course that the initial symptoms for schizophrenia and mood disorder happen at about the same age. Mood disorders come on a little sooner typically, but their symptoms are more subtle. So by the time people notice that someone is having very real problems, they are both typically in their mid to late 20s. People with mood disorders have simply been flying under the radar for longer.

But that's then, not today. Because of experience I can spot a mood disorder in a person in their late teens. Most doctor's can as well. We know what the early symptoms look like now, and because parents and family are intimately involved in every aspect of a child's life now (not quite Helicopter parenting, but close) the age at which people with mood disorders get diagnosed is younger. Late teens, early 20s. And while a very few people do get diagnosed as schizophrenic before they know they have symptoms, it's very rare and usually comes after a brain scan searching for a brain injury. I had a friend who played football, and his last scan as a player in college was the one that showed the physical deterioration. He is now full blown schizophrenic, but at 20 he wasn't even having symptoms. He just had a very alert doctor who saw that his brain had been collapsing for a couple of years and no one had noticed. But nothing like that existed in 1888.

To be far Dr Lars Davidson did qualify his opinion. He couldn't be certain without considerable one to one. He was asked to explain in simple terms for a national channel Five audience.

Which is good of him. People are so trained in this day and age to believe that doctors are right that they accept without question. But the initial psychiatric diagnosis a person is given today is at best about 75% likely to be true. Which is not really the fault of psychiatrists, but the system in place to care for acute cases requires a tentative diagnosis that is rarely altered once someone leaves the hospital. And if you come in psychotic they will treat you like a schizophrenic because those are the obvious symptoms. And the medication will work. It's up to your regular psychiatrist to find out the the psychosis was a result of a prolonged manic episode and not schizophrenia. But when a doctor gets a patient with a diagnosis (regardless where the information comes from), they tend not to look deeper. And patients don't know that they need to ask for the doctor to look deeper.

Well they believed it to be the case. Certainly one of the experts I spoke to said this was unusual, compulsive masterbation indicates high sex drive, and he said Schizophrenics often have low sex drive.

We don't know that he was a compulsive masturbator. The doctor may have simply asked if he masturbated, and he said yes. Which like, 90% of the population would also be forced to answer yes to. In the Victorian era it's certainly something for the propriety police to jump onto. But to the best of our knowledge the only time the subject comes up is on his commitment forms. Now the term "self abuse" comes up, and in modern slang that means masturbation. But this was a man who was starving himself, forcing himself to eat rotten food, clearly punishing himself, alienating just about everyone who came in contact with him... he is committing grave acts of self abuse. No different that if he was cutting himself, burning himself, self flagellating. And there is a chance he was also harming himself in more concrete ways like cutting. It would not at all be surprising. So "self abuse" could be the literal description of what his primary symptom was. It doesn't have to be a sexual metaphor. It could be very literal. And it fits.

I agree that MacNaughten was working from records. But more probably a file that no longer exists than medical records.

Whatever he was working from, the fact remains that Mcnaughton did not think it was Kosminski. He thought it was Druitt. Had McNaughton read the entirety of Kosminski's jacket, or at least what was available at the time, Kosminski would be a very hard suspect to resist. Given what these people thought of mental illness. A literal raving loony with what would look like a bad temper and complete moral abandonment would have been everyone's first choice. Kosminski was manic and terrified. I think McNaughton got a memo. He certainly didn't get enough information to change his mind from Druitt, and the information was there to be had. He would have been wrong, since no one understood Kosminski's behavior and didn't understand what was driving it, but he would have changed his mind I think.

Yes but we are talking about a suspect named by MacNaughten and Swanson and probably Andersons 'definitively ascertained fact'

So its reasonable to speculate whether he might have been capable of serious violence to women, especially in the early on set Autumn 1888.

It is reasonable. But whose eyes are you going to look through? Cops and desk jockeys who don't know the first thing about mental illness? Though to be fair, how could they? Or are you going to look through the eyes of a "madman"? We can't diagnose him from across the ages. But we can speculate about what was driving him. What do we know? What can we assume? What have we assumed that may be wrong? What backs up our assumptions? And who can we compare him to? If we saw that guy on our way to work, would we feel the need to warn women to stay away from him, or would we feel sorry for him? We have his words, and the words of a family friend. We have the words of doctors who have no skin in the game. The doctors aren't afraid. The friend is more sad than scared. Kosminski is terrified. Is this a psychotic killer, or is it a scared man in pain and in desperate need of help. When he is institutionalized, are they locking him away where he can't hurt anyone, or are they desperately trying to save his life? What do the people who encountered him think? And should we care about the opinions of people who only got a memo?

Actually I've always thought it the other way around. Once placed in an asylum Aaron appears reactively harmless. And its that that matches what we know about schizophrenia.

Its the stuff that we don't know about him in 1888 that begs the question 'could he have been Jack the Ripper?' Thats because Aaron has often been dismissed because he 'appears' harmless after entering Colney Hatch, which Martin Fido is clearly correct about… but could he be wrong about Aaron's behaviour in Sept-Nov 1888?

And why the gap? between what MacNaughten says March 1889 and the known date he enters the asylum Feb 1891?

Schizophrenics do calm down in a hospital setting. For two reasons. Primarily it is because when they are in the hospital they are medicated. Which solves 90% of their problems. But also a structured environment is helpful to schizophrenics. A rigorous schedule and familiarity increase the intervals between delusional states, and reduces the length of a delusional state.

On the other hand, barring paranoiacs, every mental illness does better with a structured setting and medication. Paranoid people get worse at first, because what they feared has come true, but despite being more paranoid, their physical symptoms get better. Heart rate, blood pressure etc. Because when the worst happens, the fear lets go.

But a great deal of it depends on the emotional state of the patient. Kosminski committed himself. Something he would not have done unless he had no other choice. He did not commit suicide. Which is always an option, so he did not lose hope. He either had nowhere else to go and decide to go along with the commitment procedures (which is possible) or he genuinely thought that being in an asylum was the best thing for him. Either way, actually being in the asylum would be a calming thing for him. Either he finally had a home, and didn't have to worry about that anymore, or he finally didn't have to be the crazy guy on the street. Either way, huge emotional burden lifted. He should have calmed down no matter what was wrong with him. Delusions are frightening, and it seems like there is no stability to found anywhere. And there isn't. Checking himself in, knowing that he was somewhere where he would be safe, fed, clothed, and would no longer be either a danger to himself or others, or a public spectacle was a HUGE relief. It feels like rock bottom and safe harbor at the same time. But either way, you aren't going back to what you used to be.

Whether he appears harmless or not isn't the issue. Even if he was violent, that doesn't mean he is the Ripper. We have to ask ourselves if there is a reason to think he would be that kind of violent. Not would he hit a woman, but would he knife her, almost cut her head off, tear her open, take organs and disappear into the night. That's a specific kind of violent. So what we have to look at is there anything we know about Kosminski, sane or otherwise, that says that that kind of violence is a part of him? And if there is anything, is it enough to call him the Ripper?

Many thanks

Yours Jeff[/QUOTE]

[Batman]

The thing about this type of diagnosis is that in the 21st century any type of a specific psychosis such as Schizophrenia is something that can take years to diagnose. It is not the sort of thing where in the space of a few hours, days or weeks the diagnosis is made, but over much longer periods of time and monitoring.

People can have psychotic episodes that resemble Schizophrenia but are not Schizophrenics. There are also various personality disorders that may seem like Schizophrenia but are not.

What is Schizophrenia? I think to some degree it is mostly a genetic disorder where perception gets altered and delusions appear. Who knows? In the past such paranoia may have conferred a survival advantage in certain situations where a person constantly believing they are being targetted may actually be ready for it when it happens. As humans we modify our environments at a considerable rate and so such traits appear more at odds with the world about us. Yet who knows? The person may have been elevated to the position of Shaman or Oracle or something like that in another culture.

At the same time I never really bought much into serial lust killers being Schizophrenics. I think for example that Peter Sutcliffe lied about his voices from the grave commanding him to kill prostitutes. At least the Judge and Jury saw through that from what I remember? Then we have Son of Sam with his dog commanded him to do it. I think this is another cop-out. Denis Rader talks about this demon that manipulates him. Its all just smoke and mirrors for these guys not to take responsibility for what they have done.

However the one that does stand out is very much like a JtR type character. His name is Robert Napper. He is a paranoid schizophrenic with Aspergers. It is likely he is the Green Chain Rapist. For someone so ill, he was capable of avoiding detection for decades. Colin Stagg was setup as the killer and its interesting to compare the two which are completely different personality types. Stagg was obviously very creative in his fantasy conversations with a police woman. He said some dumb things but wasn't a killer and likely isn't capable of being one either. Napper was someone who was very ill, had a mom looking after him and completely went under the rader, even when his mom reported him for rapes (after he told her!).

[Jeff Leahy]

Scrupulosity goes with delusions. Regardless of how those delusions come about, whether it be schizophrenia, bipolar, a psychotic break, OCD, hell even malaria.

I do still think that Kosminski had one of the rarer forms of Bipolar disorder. Which changes nothing as far as his worth as a suspect, though to be honest Bipolar people do slightly lead Schizophrenics in violent outbursts. Not by a lot, but a little bit. Nor does Bipolar in any way preclude delusions. Especially on the manic side, and Kosminski's jacket describes mania..

I don't 'think' Dr LArs Dabidson based his conclusions so much on the various symptoms but more a practical conclusion about his age and physical timing a decent into catatonic state. Please note I'm not a psychiatrist but a documentary film maker with an interest in the subject.

But as I previously explained my partner (And I mean that in both senses) ex-husband was originally diagnoses with Manic Depression and later with Bi-polar dis-order. A very heavy drinker he certainly had peaks and troffs from her description, grandious delusions and split personality bordering on Schizophrenia.

So i understand that what you are saying, that it is often difficult to tell and be precise.

To be far Dr Lars Davidson did qualify his opinion. He couldn't be certain without considerable one to one. He was asked to explain in simple terms for a national channel Five audience.

Add the problem to that that everyone scores on a sociopathic scale somewhere, so having more than one condition is also a reasonable consideration.

But we don't have a lot on him, so I can't exactly make some kind of definitive statement with only a dozen or so behaviors described. Hell he could have a brain injury for all I know..

Yes. I agree with you. We have very little to go on.

As for Mcnaughton's statement... there are problems. He says he went mad from masturbating. Which we all know doesn't happen.

Well they believed it to be the case. Certainly one of the experts I spoke to said this was unusual, compulsive masterbation indicates high sex drive, and he said Schizophrenics often have low sex drive.

But it could just be that the family had to have a reason to lock him up, other than, he's JtR, and Masturbation would have been a good one, especially if he went into a private asylum as I'm currently speculating.

And he says he had a great hatred of women. Of which there was no record. There is nothing, not even Mcnaughton's own statements that suggest he ever had any contact with Kosminski. Which makes sense. What he is likely basing his statement off of is the medical certificate. He pulled a knife on his sister. It's in his initial interviews. Now, the best thinking at the time was that Jack the Ripper hated women, so it's natural to look at a suspect with an act of violence towards a woman and see the Ripper. Jack hated women, Kosminski pulled a knife on a woman, ergo Kosminski hated women. In this case I think the statement about Kosminski's supposed hatred of women is overblown. Literary license, not necessarily a quote from Kosminski..

I agree that MacNaughten was working from records. But more probably a file that no longer exists than medical records.

ANd as you say we have very little, so what we do have should be given serious consideration. I'm hoping to put more meat on the bones of a news paper story concerning a Man in Brick lane who threatened a woman with a knife.

The only evidence we have on Kosminski's view of women is that single incident. And for all we know that was self defense. We can make assumptions given his delusions, his problems with socializing, the culture he grew up in, etc. But they are just assumptions. As it stands, nothing backs up McNaughton's rather strong statement..

Yes but we are talking about a suspect named by MacNaughten and Swanson and probably Andersons 'definitively ascertained fact'

So its reasonable to speculate whether he might have been capable of serious violence to women, especially in the early on set Autumn 1888.

I have no problem with you trusting trained experts. I'm a trained expert of a sort, and I have trained experts I ask. And they aren't going to agree with so little actual information. I try to stay out of the diagnosis game because in the end the diagnosis doesn't matter. It's the behavior that matters. But yeah I get sucked in sometimes. I like puzzles as much as the next girl. Scrupulosity is a description of behaviors and motivation. That matters. The fact that Kosminski may or may not have had a disease with 12 separate components including genetics, heredity, and structural collapse... doesn't matter so much..

I don't have a problem with speculation. Actually its rather interesting. It just needs clearly labelling as such…

That said I'm as guilty as the next ripperologist for sometimes forgetting that.

If he was schizophrenic, or bipolar, or in early onset dementia, it tells us nothing. It doesn't make him more or less likely to be a killer. If his behaviors showed that he had delusions of being the Queen, that makes him less likely to butcher prostitutes. If his behaviors show him escalating violent behaviors in order to do God's will, that might make him more likely to be a killer. Scrupulosity simply describes one possible manifestation of a delusion. But scrupulosity isn't the only behavior pattern common in delusions. I just think it's the one that fits the best. If you think there is a better explanation of his patterns, shout it out. But the diagnosis really doesn't matter.

Actually I've always thought it the other way around. Once placed in an asylum Aaron appears reactively harmless. And its that that matches what we know about schizophrenia.

Its the stuff that we don't know about him in 1888 that begs the question 'could he have been Jack the Ripper?' Thats because Aaron has often been dismissed because he 'appears' harmless after entering Colney Hatch, which Martin Fido is clearly correct about… but could he be wrong about Aaron's behaviour in Sept-Nov 1888?

And why the gap? between what MacNaughten says March 1889 and the known date he enters the asylum Feb 1891?

Many thanks

Yours Jeff

[Hunter]

As for Mcnaughton's statement... there are problems. He says he went mad from masturbating. Which we all know doesn't happen...

Well... maybe for just a moment...
Just sayin'...

[Errata]

ANd this is your new theory, rather than your previous theory that Aaron was Bi Polar…

Yet you still fail to address MacNaughtens observation that 'he had a hatred of women'

Please excuse the rest of us trusting trained experts

Yours Jeff

Scrupulosity goes with delusions. Regardless of how those delusions come about, whether it be schizophrenia, bipolar, a psychotic break, OCD, hell even malaria.

I do still think that Kosminski had one of the rarer forms of Bipolar disorder. Which changes nothing as far as his worth as a suspect, though to be honest Bipolar people do slightly lead Schizophrenics in violent outbursts. Not by a lot, but a little bit. Nor does Bipolar in any way preclude delusions. Especially on the manic side, and Kosminski's jacket describes mania.

But we don't have a lot on him, so I can't exactly make some kind of definitive statement with only a dozen or so behaviors described. Hell he could have a brain injury for all I know.

As for Mcnaughton's statement... there are problems. He says he went mad from masturbating. Which we all know doesn't happen. And he says he had a great hatred of women. Of which there was no record. There is nothing, not even Mcnaughton's own statements that suggest he ever had any contact with Kosminski. Which makes sense. What he is likely basing his statement off of is the medical certificate. He pulled a knife on his sister. It's in his initial interviews. Now, the best thinking at the time was that Jack the Ripper hated women, so it's natural to look at a suspect with an act of violence towards a woman and see the Ripper. Jack hated women, Kosminski pulled a knife on a woman, ergo Kosminski hated women. In this case I think the statement about Kosminski's supposed hatred of women is overblown. Literary license, not necessarily a quote from Kosminski.

The only evidence we have on Kosminski's view of women is that single incident. And for all we know that was self defense. We can make assumptions given his delusions, his problems with socializing, the culture he grew up in, etc. But they are just assumptions. As it stands, nothing backs up McNaughton's rather strong statement.

I have no problem with you trusting trained experts. I'm a trained expert of a sort, and I have trained experts I ask. And they aren't going to agree with so little actual information. I try to stay out of the diagnosis game because in the end the diagnosis doesn't matter. It's the behavior that matters. But yeah I get sucked in sometimes. I like puzzles as much as the next girl. Scrupulosity is a description of behaviors and motivation. That matters. The fact that Kosminski may or may not have had a disease with 12 separate components including genetics, heredity, and structural collapse... doesn't matter so much.

If he was schizophrenic, or bipolar, or in early onset dementia, it tells us nothing. It doesn't make him more or less likely to be a killer. If his behaviors showed that he had delusions of being the Queen, that makes him less likely to butcher prostitutes. If his behaviors show him escalating violent behaviors in order to do God's will, that might make him more likely to be a killer. Scrupulosity simply describes one possible manifestation of a delusion. But scrupulosity isn't the only behavior pattern common in delusions. I just think it's the one that fits the best. If you think there is a better explanation of his patterns, shout it out. But the diagnosis really doesn't matter.

[Jeff Leahy]

But Jewish Schizophrenics have at least on two occasions that I know of seen Jesus. I've read those reports. They were pretty specific. No rationale to it anywhere, but there it was. The shining exception to a rule. And to be fair, both patients were confused by the manifestation. So while there are guidelines, there are no rules.
.

Eh but the key to this is surely the word 'Schizophrenic'?

The expert I consulted discussed in general terms a number of patients on his ward. Two of these both believed they were Lord Louise Mount Battern (And apparently got along famously) This is a common gandious element of Schizophrenia (Although I understand it is also true of some people suffering bi-polar) And as we don't know why MacNaughten says Kosminski has a great hatred of woman, as all schizophrenic conditions are unique to the person suffering we should be careful about trying to fix to precise a diagnosis.

Given Aarons age and decent into catatonic state the most rassional probability is 'a form of schizophrenia' This is fairly common in men of Aarons age. And while I agree some elements sound like 'Paranoia' by and large Paraniod schizophrenics tend to develop rather older (Typically late twenties) Personally I'm always suspicious of the term, as in the UK media Paraniod Schizophrenic seems to have become synonymous with meaning dangerous and I wonder if the term is 'Media' driven rather than genuine diagnosis. A schizophrenic spectrum seems more probable to me.

What we know (Link from earlier post) is that should schizophrenics become dangerous they are more likely (Statistically) to do so when their illness first develops. That once removed from the environment and Catylist associated with their condition they are likely to make improvement, as schizophrenics are basically not dangerous and more likely to endanger themselves than others. So its the on set that is important. It also explains why Aaron is 'basically' harmless as described in his asylum records. Schizophrenics can be very functional during this early phase.

Aaron seems to have still been functional for periods in 1889-90.

None of this says Aarom was Jack the Ripper, simply that the possibility can not simply be discounted because he apparently appears harmless at the end of his life.

Yours Jeff