Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Errata]

Actually this is quite what I was described by the expert who worked at an asylum with Schizophrenics. And still works in the field.

He described a number of cases of young men in there early twenties on set into schizophrenia. He described above average intelligence often men in first year of university. Schizophrenia hitting in what he described a 'Psychotic ' attacks often lasting around 18 weeks and being wave like.

He said that between attacks would be periods of recovery and that these could vary between individuals. However the impression I got was these periods were either similar in length or could be considerably longer each attack being more savers, so progressive.

This would mean that your looking at vary different abilities of 'Function' as the illness progressed.

That's true. Early onset is getting more and more common, which is one of the big arguments for environmental factors. And sadly childhood onset is getting more common, thought still very rare. And there are few things in this life more tragic than a 7 year old girl terrified of herself.

There is a very real cyclical aspect to Schizophrenia. Delusion is followed by recovery, which is followed by lucidity, which is followed by delusion again. But there is a point when the structural collapse is such that recovery and lucidity are gone. The brain just shrinks to the point that regular synaptic pathways are just snarled.

But functionality is a different beast. There are very high functioning schizophrenics. I work with a few. Their delusions don't require a lot of action. They hold jobs, have friends, live their lives. They are delusional, but it doesn't affect them most of the time. It's rare, but it happens.

Delusion will override judgement every time. Otherwise it would not be a catastrophic disease. The recovery period is odd. It is an almost blank state. It's very like waking up and trying to piece together a dream that makes no sense. The delusion is gone. The belief driving the behavior is gone. The recovery period is when judgement comes back online, and a the schizophrenic is trying to make sense of what they remember. Persistent delusions make it easier, and eventually a person gets to the point where the recovery period is very short. They know what happened because it's what always happens. But during the recovery period, the sufferer is pretty quiet. Almost dreamy. Not paying attention. They are in their head trying to piece things together. But they are perfectly sane. And during lucidity they are not delusional, not hallucinating, they are perfectly normal.

So the only time their behavior is affected by their delusion is when they are delusional.

Well i disagree the attacks could just be random attacks during an 'early psychotic' episode. It just happened that these women were on the street and venerable. So it doesn't preclude Kosminski in the slightest.

However that said… I had a conversation with my partner about her ex-husband (He suffer Manic depression later changed to Bi-polar but she believed he showed signs of schizophrenia) He became very obsessive about lorry's that would cross into their close near there house. They'd only do so by a few yards to back into the local B&Q. But he'd spend hours watching and waiting so he could go outside and have a go at the driver. Hundreds of letter s of complaint. He became obsessive over space and someone breaking rules.

So if my speculation is correct about Kosminski watching shops at night perhaps these women plying the trade took on a similar obsession?

It both facisnated and revolted him… But he became obsessive about these women. MacNaughten says he had a strong hatred of women.

Yours Jeff

Manic depression and Bipolar are the same disease. They renamed it because they found out it was not so black and white. And some Bipolar people do have psychotic breaks. The neurochemical storm shuts down the frontal lobe and a person is left delusional and hallucinating. Usually during a manic state, and if they "come down" from the mania the psychosis will end. But there is also schizoaffective disorder, which is like the bastard stepchild of Bipolar and Schizophrenia...

But neither here nor there. What you are describing with the trucks is not a delusion, unless he thought that they were aliens. Nor is it a hallucination, because it actually happened. It's a manifestation of mania. People with Mania can become expansive, love everybody, they can feel indestructible, they can feel like a god. Some need to to fight. Others need to ****. But most of the time, especially because mania blocks sleep, they get really paranoid and confrontational. He saw the trucks as a defiance of HIS law. How dare they? Who the hell do these people think they are? He became confrontational. An alpha dog urinating on a wall to mark his territory. The state can lead to severe abuse in the home, and if that was the case, I'm very sorry for your partner. That's nowhere near okay. Men with full blown mania can be very scary. But it's not psychosis. It's the dopamine and adrenaline surge boosting the testosterone to intolerable levels. It creates the Uber-d ick.

If Kosminski became obsessed these women because of Mania, then his delusions have nothing to do with it. Unfortunately for your theory, Mania is another one of those things that shuts down the frontal lobe. In your own example, this guy did not plot elaborate revenge on the trucks, he didn't stalk them, he charged over there and got in their face. Classic.

We know that Jack surprised these women. They didn't scream, didn't run... they had no idea it was coming. I would imagine that those truck drivers knew you'r partner's ex was coming before they even saw him. It's like letting loose a bear. Regargless of whether or not he attacks, a bear makes an entrance. So Kosminski acting on a delusion is out, and Kosminski acting in a manic fit is out.

If he was just a creepy stalker who plotted elaborate and humiliating punishment for those who crossed him, I would probably expect more than just women to be killed, but if he is unsure of his own survival against another male, then yeah sure. It would not be the result of a mental illness, but it would be the result of "issues" which Kosminski had in spades. It's a motive that could apply to any pseudo authority figure in Whitechapel who might walk around feeling thwarted. It opens up a new suspect class. It points to a different type of killer, which Kosminski might be a part of. It's point the finger directly at him specifically.

But if that's the case, his mental illness is off the table. It's not making him kill, it's not driving his behavior. If anything it's inhibiting his behavior. If he is creepy stalker with an axe to grind, that's not mental illness. That's just who he is. So I would expect all talk of his mental illness as anything other than what possibly stopped the killings to cease.

I'm mentally ill. I'm bipolar. It's why I see something I think I recognize in Kosminski. And yes. Bipolar people have killed. I won't be one of them, I've been under control since I was 14. So if you ever hear that I killed my fiance, it won't be because of my mental illness. It will be because he has kept me up with his snoring for The. Last. Time. I have a temper because I am half Scottish. Not because I'm bipolar. So one of the reasons I chime in on the mental illness discussions is to try and keep things real.

Your partner had a right to fear her ex. And ironically not because he was bipolar. She should have feared him because he did not have enough regard for her to get himself under control. To get medicated, to see a therapist, to give up the high of the mania so that he wouldn't hurt her or others. That was his job and he failed. It was like living with a meth addict. Something was poisoning everything, and he could have controlled it, but he didn't want to give up something that made him feel good.

There are a lot of beliefs out there about mental illness that aren't true. And all they do is engender fear. It helps no one. It certainly doesn't help someone like me who has watched every person she ever informed of her bipolar take a step back in fear. Mental illness has rules. When I get depressed I don't walk through a department store naked shouting for King George III. No one would expect me to. Because everyone accepts that Depression has rules. But every mental illness has rules. Even schizophrenia. Perhaps not as many rules as would make us comfortable, but A+B=C. You have to know what A and B are, but they will always equal C. And not everything is controlled by a mental illness.

If you want to know why someone with unipolar depression likes romantic comedies so much, you want to look at the fact that she is a girl. Not that she is unipolar.

[Robert]

No worries, Jeff.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, I know most of these women were getting on a bit but I don't think it's very gallant to call them venerable.

You'll have to excuse my dyslexia Robert…it's why I prefer a camera to the mighty pen

Its also bloody annoying that you only get 30minutes to correct spelling errors…I usually spot them second time around…


Yours Jeff

[Robert]

Jeff, I know most of these women were getting on a bit but I don't think it's very gallant to call them venerable.

[Jeff Leahy]

The fact we have a leading investigator exhonourating Kozminski I think adds some fuel for the anti-Kozminski groups.

I don't think it 'Adds' any fuel as it has always been the case that MacNaughten prefers Druit.

What I'm suggesting is that MAcNaughten doesn't really know very much. He didn't even Join the MET until some months after the murders he claims were the only victims.

And clearly he dates what is known about Kosminski up to March 1889. Before he arrived.

So if he doesn't know anything about the ID or Kosminski entering Colney Hatch. Doesn't know he threatened the life of his sister. In fact all he knows is that he from time to time became insane, he was followed and no proof could be had against him…

THen MacNaughten on that evidence is surely correct is he not?

However Anderson has a member of Kosminskis family believing him the Whitechapel murderer and a positive ID which the fellow jew would not sware too….

So we have two good coppers with different information coming to two logical but totally different conclusions based on which either one actually knows…

Ceratnly solves the biggest problems usually forwarded by Anti-Kosminski protagonists.

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

A to Z page 328 Abberconway version..

Now I think about it I'm inclined to exonerate the other two but have suspicions about the first etc..

But Errita is correct. If NacNaughten had indeed known the truth about Kosminski eventually ending up in Colney Hatch it seems unlikely he would have exhonourated him

Yours Jeff

Okay that's the one and I found it on that page.

So he exhonourates Kozminski and Ostrog but has strong suspicions about Dr. Druitt... who wasn't a doctor as we know.

The fact we have a leading investigator exhonourating Kozminski I think adds some fuel for the anti-Kozminski groups.

[Jeff Leahy]

. What he is likely basing his statement off of is the medical certificate. He pulled a knife on his sister. It's in his initial interviews. .

To claim this you would have to explain why MacNaughten says Kosminski entered the Asylum in March 1889?

If MacNaughten were working from Kosminski's Colney Hatch admission records 'attacked his sister', they are clearly dated February 1891

So there is a direct contradiction in this reasoning

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry what is the source for that one?

Thanks.

A to Z page 328 Abberconway version..

Now I think about it I'm inclined to exonerate the other two but have suspicions about the first etc..

But Errita is correct. If NacNaughten had indeed known the truth about Kosminski eventually ending up in Colney Hatch it seems unlikely he would have exhonourated him

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

It does have a time frame, but once you get the onset of delusions you are a full blown schizophrenic. And people only return to lucidity for a while. Eventually they stop normalizing and stay delusional.

Actually this is quite what I was described by the expert who worked at an asylum with Schizophrenics. And still works in the field.

He described a number of cases of young men in there early twenties on set into schizophrenia. He described above average intelligence often men in first year of university. Schizophrenia hitting in what he described a 'Psychotic ' attacks often lasting around 18 weeks and being wave like.

He said that between attacks would be periods of recovery and that these could vary between individuals. However the impression I got was these periods were either similar in length or could be considerably longer each attack being more savers, so progressive.

This would mean that your looking at vary different abilities of 'Function' as the illness progressed.

On the other hand, if you would like to argue that Kosminski's insanity made him a serial killer, you are going to have find different victims. Delusional people don't plan, and they are really bad at sneaking around. They do kill occasionally, but it looks nothing like the Ripper. On the other hand if he beat a prostitute to death in front of people while screaming obscenities at her... that would fit.

Well i disagree the attacks could just be random attacks during an 'early psychotic' episode. It just happened that these women were on the street and venerable. So it doesn't preclude Kosminski in the slightest.

However that said… I had a conversation with my partner about her ex-husband (He suffer Manic depression later changed to Bi-polar but she believed he showed signs of schizophrenia) He became very obsessive about lorry's that would cross into their close near there house. They'd only do so by a few yards to back into the local B&Q. But he'd spend hours watching and waiting so he could go outside and have a go at the driver. Hundreds of letter s of complaint. He became obsessive over space and someone breaking rules.

So if my speculation is correct about Kosminski watching shops at night perhaps these women plying the trade took on a similar obsession?

It both facisnated and revolted him… But he became obsessive about these women. MacNaughten says he had a strong hatred of women.

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

MacNaughten prefers Druit as a suspect

Yours Jeff

Sorry what is the source for that one?

Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

Who said had not worked "at his trade" in years? Mr. Jacob Cohen, family friend/Wolf's business associate/possibly related by marriage said of Aaron:

"He has not attempted any work in years" He said any work. He didn't say at his trade or any trade. You just made that up, Jeff.

No, no employment, no work. Jacob Cohen said he had not attempted any work in years,

That's called work.

Jacob Cohen said Aaron had not attempted any work in years.

The man that City Detective Cox watched was not a nightwatchman. He worked during the day. He could be seen "busy as usual" during daylight hours. He took his strolls at night. They followed him.

The man Cox watched had his shop. The man he watched was not a night watchman for someone else, he had his own shop.

The man Cox watched saw customers. Night watchmen don't see customers.

Jeff, that's why I asked you how much of Aaron's known record you are willing to toss out, and you said everything's on the table. Apparently you are writing a brand new script for City Detective Cox, too.

Roy

Hi Roy , I thought I'd addressed this observation but I'll re - trace with as much detail as possible.

The Kalish community arriving in the East End bought their trades. Butchers , Bakers, Taylors etc, they started from nothing they took a raw material and they made something. Emerigration communities are often industrious and that certainly seemed the case of those fleeing from Kalish programs.

Their trades were thus very important it definded who they were. And Aarons Trade was given as a 'hairdresser' because thats what he did. And as its specific (It doesn't say barber or Felcher) I think we can assume as his family were Taylors making high class garnets for the fashion industry that rather than someone who simply cut peoples hair, he was a trained artisan.

Another words I think when Jacob Cohen gave his trade as 'Hairdresser' it contained a certain amount of Kudos. And not undertaking any kind of work in years was a reference to him not plying his trade, synonymous with their culture.

I think its been generally accepted that Aaron probably stayed in the family Tayloring business doing odd jobs. I'm simply opening that idea up into something more general. He checked out the communities properties at night, may be did some tidying emptie bins. Keep him busy keep him out of harms way.

I worked for a Jewish Jewlers for many years when I was young. I can assure you sitting around doing nothing was never acceptable, there was always a loft to clean or some painting at some property they also owned. If you were paid for a saturday you worked all day, even if it was only mopping up. (Great business learning curve it was too)

But I'm saying I don't think the expression 'Years' tells us for sure how long. And I believe that 'work' would have implied his 'Trade' i.e. Hairdressing.

I then clearly marked my post as 'speculation' of my new theory i.e. that Cox and Sagar are talking about the same man between Nov 1888 and March 1889, when MacNaughten says he entered an asylum.

And the man they describe clearly occupies more than one premises, and this matches what we know about Aaron Kosminski's family, wider family and community.

So I'm saying there is evidence to link the two.

And if that is the case the Aaron Kosminski described was far from not being capable of work… He from time to time became insane… This is not a man eating from the gutter incapable of coherent conversation.

You asked me if I was prepared to re-think everything we know about Aaron, and I said I was. But thats by going back to the sources and listening to what they actually say and if you do that the pieces fit far more comfortably.

Jacob Cohen says that Aaron 'hasn't undertaken any kind of work in years' but we don't know how long 'years' would imply and its difficult to be sure what he means by 'work'. Where as MAcNaughten is very specific he says March 1889.

Once you have that date fixed everything else slots into place.

Yours Jeff

[Errata]

Yeah but isn't that what my supposition is suggesting?

You seem trying to create a single 'diagnosis' for Aaron Kosminski

****

Schizophrenia has a time frame

Yours Jeff

It does have a time frame, but once you get the onset of delusions you are a full blown schizophrenic. And people only return to lucidity for a while. Eventually they stop normalizing and stay delusional.

The diagnosis of Kosminski whether it a be singular or comorbidity is beside the point on this. If I can convey nothing else it is this:

There is a massive logical disconnect when saying that someone must be Jack because they are crazy, but they are only Jack when they are not crazy. Either the disease makes him do it, or has nothing to do with it.

If we are talking about a regular guy who is a serial killer who just so happens to be psychotic, but the psychosis is not causing him to kill, then take mental illness out of it entirely. In that case, his mental illness is like his inseam length. Of absolutely no relevance to the case at hand.

If we are talking about a psychotic guy killing women because of his delusions, then he is not this serial killer.

Either his illness matters, or it doesn't. It's part of the motive, or just a piece of trivia.

If you would like to argue the merits of Kosminski being the killer when he is sane, then we don't need to discuss his mental illness at all except to point out that it might have taken him off the streets. We don't debate about what Bundy's favorite football team might have been with any sense of significance. Same thing. Delusion is a binary state. You are or you aren't. If you are it affects your behavior and beliefs. If you aren't then it doesn't.

On the other hand, if you would like to argue that Kosminski's insanity made him a serial killer, you are going to have find different victims. Delusional people don't plan, and they are really bad at sneaking around. They do kill occasionally, but it looks nothing like the Ripper. On the other hand if he beat a prostitute to death in front of people while screaming obscenities at her... that would fit.

[Roy Corduroy]

It starts with the death of MJK. Because thats when Cox and Sagar get on the trial of a suspect…Kosminski…

Aaron is listed as a Hairdresser. And Trades were very important to the Kalish community it defined who they were. ANd Aaron had not worked 'At his trade' in years.

Who said had not worked "at his trade" in years? Mr. Jacob Cohen, family friend/Wolf's business associate/possibly related by marriage said of Aaron:

"He has not attempted any work in years" He said any work. He didn't say at his trade or any trade. You just made that up, Jeff.

He been sort of employed as a 'Night Watchman' odd job man by his community. This community owned several shops in the Area, including Abraham's who owned a Butcher premises in Aldgate (Not occupied at Night)

employed

work

No, no employment, no work. Jacob Cohen said he had not attempted any work in years,

He'd been asked to keep watch, and took his new job very seriously, obsessively, he kept watch, watching everyone protecting his premises

His new job.

That's called work.

Jacob Cohen said Aaron had not attempted any work in years.

The man that City Detective Cox watched was not a nightwatchman. He worked during the day. He could be seen "busy as usual" during daylight hours. He took his strolls at night. They followed him.

The man Cox watched had his shop. The man he watched was not a night watchman for someone else, he had his own shop.

The man Cox watched saw customers. Night watchmen don't see customers.

Jeff, that's why I asked you how much of Aaron's known record you are willing to toss out, and you said everything's on the table. Apparently you are writing a brand new script for City Detective Cox, too.

Roy

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry what's the evidence he prefers Druitt? Isn't he just listing 3 cases that he thinks makes a better case than the suggestions being put to him. In fact out of those 3 cases I think he had to be aware that Ostrog was in jail, Druitt was just a case of a drowned man at the time the murders ceased and Kozminski the nutty Jew to match some profiling that was floating around. I don't think he was saying "my first preference is Druitt" but here are 3 better examples than the one you gave. In fact did he have a good suspect in mind at all? I think not.

I am not even sure if Swanson believed Kozminski JtR, but was simply the person they had some issues around identification and Jews who wouldn't testify against him and wanted to clarify that it was Kozminski.

Abberline seems the only one who really puts his chips in and he did it with Chapman.

MacNaughten prefers Druit as a suspect

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

. A schizophrenic would have to be lucid to be the Ripper.

Yeah but isn't that what my supposition is suggesting?

You seem trying to create a single 'diagnosis' for Aaron Kosminski

Surely I'm doing the exact opposite. I'm saying that the illness has an 'on set' a 'development' and a conclusion

At each phase of the illness he will be different. He will be 'functional' to a different extend at different phases… And that illness develops in waves of being functional and being highly 'psychotic' Its that that is the nature of Schizophrenia…Surely?

ANd I'm saying that if we want to look at Kosminski's condition at the time of the murders we need to look at what Cox and Sagar say… And that man is highly functional, nothing like the later Kosminski

So your correct about Macnuaghten…If he known the whole truth he would have gone for Kosminsksi…However he didn't..he went for Druit

And thats because he only knew the info on Kosminski up until March 1889.

Kosminski's delusions cannot make him the Ripper. I suppose he could be the Ripper despite the delusions, if he was killing when he was mentally fit. But there's nothing that really supports that conclusion. If his delusions are what make people think he did it, the reality is that his mental illness rules him out.

Again you seem fix on a single illness. rather than an illness that develops and changes over a three year period

And its the development and changes over that period that you need to consider. That doesn't change the diagnosis..

But it certainly changes the Patients ability to function and inter act with the real world at different phases of the illness

Schizophrenia has a time frame

Yours Jeff