Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[lynn cates]

Coles

Hello Jeff. I note with interest that you include, as victims, ALL between Smith and McKenzie. Although I obviously disagree, at least that is consistent. Your argument is that a single killer may vary methods (which is quite true--as far as it goes) and so you dismiss variations.

But I can never understand how you can then dismiss Coles? Surely she is more like, say, Stride, than Smith is?

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

I think it narrows the field as well, but unfortunately not to a very significant degree. If we bring up a list of suspects, for sake of argument let it be ten people. (outside the Royals and Jill the Ripper type nonsense) Given a ranking system from 1-10 i would lean toward putting anybody not local (or not very familiar with the area) toward the bottom right from the start.

.

Well its drifting off subject a little. I think my point has been I've seen a shift away from more exotic suspects to more local type suspects over the last ten years. Or may be even the Jack didn't exist type arguments or the 'They were done by different people'.

But my top ten would be largely local men, unknown.

I guess the joker in the pack is Druit. He has to be credible because he's forwarded by a credible Source. MacNaughten.

I dropped Druit from my personal suspect list because I think if he were the killer we'd see a wider spread of bodies and attacks. He came in at Cannon Street so Elephant and Castle is as good a killing field as Whitechapel.

But then I don't know what MacNaughtens 'private info' was… However what I'm postulating is that MacNaughten only had info on the murders up to March 1889. And its that reason that he goes for Druit over Kosminski.

But I don't believe either suspect can be eliminated on what Fredrick Browns says…

Druits father had been a doctor, so its possible Druit entertained the idea at some point. And I've seen a number of arguments put forward for Kosminski having 'anatomical' knowledge. From Simm's who claimed he worked in a Hospital in Poland to the fact that Hairdresser might have meant barber or 'fetcher' and in 1880;s barbers also performed minor surgical procedures.

But personally I agree with Dr Bond. I don't think there is any evidence that Jack required any surgical or medical knowledge. And the apparent difference in the skill of the attacks is caused by the different environments and time he had available.

Yours jeff

[GUT]

So.. the illustration of why Jack needn't have had medical training comes from your own experiences with.. medical training?

Point taken though. I mean, most people can point to the general location of the heart, or the uterus. Possibly fewer could locate the kidneys easily or precisely. He did sort of hack them out, leaving half of this bit behind, literally rummaged around in the cavities for what he wanted.

Not a surgeon, I definitely think.

But *possibly* someone who'd dealt with bodies before, in some capacity. Them's some pretty bold and sure moves he had there, in the dark and under stress.

I think many could have a rough "stab" at the Kidney, most, if not all have had Kidney pain when they've been knocked in the region and I suspect most blokes have been hit there at some stage in sport or while "rough housing"

[gnote]

Yes clearly I was joshing, you'll have to excuse my british sense of humour, but over the years many suspects, well over 150 these days have been put forward…

There are examples of serial killers travelling into London, Colin Ireland for one…but its not common for serial killer to travel to a single location. You have to look at the rioper case as a whole and most of the experts I've spoken to and discussed with, say Jack was a local man, who knew the area. It may not exclude thousands, but it does exclude many of the 127 or so suspects, some credible…Druit, Sickert , Maybrick, Lewis Carrol etc

So we are looking for someone local, someone with 'anatomical' knowledge, someone strong, fit and with a very convenient hide out once the murders are done…

Personally I think that narrows the field

Yours Jeff

I think it narrows the field as well, but unfortunately not to a very significant degree. If we bring up a list of suspects, for sake of argument let it be ten people. (outside the Royals and Jill the Ripper type nonsense) Given a ranking system from 1-10 i would lean toward putting anybody not local (or not very familiar with the area) toward the bottom right from the start.

The top name(s) on that list would only be that. Top on THAT list. It's not a board game like Clue in that it absolutely has to be one of them.

So we are looking for someone local, someone with 'anatomical' knowledge, someone strong, fit and with a very convenient hide out once the murders are done…

I agree with this take, but the anatomical knowledge part is vague. Leave it in or out, and we're still left with a lot of locals who could fit within this category.

[Ausgirl]

So we are looking for someone local, someone with 'anatomical' knowledge, someone strong, fit and with a very convenient hide out once the murders are done…

Personally I think that narrows the field

Yours Jeff

Strong & fit... why? He blitzed drunk/tired women in the dark, in the small hours, probably from behind. I'm a gracefully aging crippled female lifetime smoker, and I reckon --I-- could pull that off, if I was really determined.

If he killed Tabram.. different story. Perhaps. I once stabbed a pillow 40 times in rapid succession and oh boy was that exhausting. But then, I'm not a "strong fit" man, and I did manage it (albeit a bit sore of arm and puffed afterward).

[Jeff Leahy]

I'm well aware of all of this. (i'm sure most members of this board for more then a week are as well) Knight and Cornwell are only two examples amongst the wild theorists. I don't know who 'batman' advocates or doesn't as a suspect(s).


"But whoever Jack the Ripper was he likely lived and worked close to the murder scenes and travelled by foot, So the list of suspects can be narrowed down."

I agree completely, however I don't believe it narrows down the suspect field much given the population of Whitechapel/Spitafields at the time.

Yes clearly I was joshing, you'll have to excuse my british sense of humour, but over the years many suspects, well over 150 these days have been put forward…

There are examples of serial killers travelling into London, Colin Ireland for one…but its not common for serial killer to travel to a single location. You have to look at the rioper case as a whole and most of the experts I've spoken to and discussed with, say Jack was a local man, who knew the area. It may not exclude thousands, but it does exclude many of the 127 or so suspects, some credible…Druit, Sickert , Maybrick, Lewis Carrol etc

So we are looking for someone local, someone with 'anatomical' knowledge, someone strong, fit and with a very convenient hide out once the murders are done…

Personally I think that narrows the field

Yours Jeff

[gnote]

THe ripperology world has largely moved on since I started researching it. Today suspects who lived in Whitechapel and the general vicinity seem most probable given what is known about serial killers per ce…

There will always be the odd person, Patricai cornwall, Steven Knight or Batman, who will come up with wild theories…

But whoever Jack the Ripper was he likely lived and worked close to the murder scenes and travelled by foot, So the list of suspects can be narrowed down.

Yours Jeff

I'm well aware of all of this. (i'm sure most members of this board for more then a week are as well) Knight and Cornwell are only two examples amongst the wild theorists. I don't know who 'batman' advocates or doesn't as a suspect(s).


"But whoever Jack the Ripper was he likely lived and worked close to the murder scenes and travelled by foot, So the list of suspects can be narrowed down."

I agree completely, however I don't believe it narrows down the suspect field much given the population of Whitechapel/Spitafields at the time.

[Ausgirl]

It's funny, but I trained for a rescue squad for mass cas. scenarios, and we were given precisely this test.

The theory was that we were going to identify and stabilize wounds in someone pinned, or trapped under a collapsed building, and we would not be able to lay eyes on the injuries. We were given this exact test. If we could retrieve the ball, we could work with no sight. It was a training tool.

It wasn't until yesterday that I thought about it in terms of the Ripper.

So.. the illustration of why Jack needn't have had medical training comes from your own experiences with.. medical training?

Point taken though. I mean, most people can point to the general location of the heart, or the uterus. Possibly fewer could locate the kidneys easily or precisely. He did sort of hack them out, leaving half of this bit behind, literally rummaged around in the cavities for what he wanted.

Not a surgeon, I definitely think.

But *possibly* someone who'd dealt with bodies before, in some capacity. Them's some pretty bold and sure moves he had there, in the dark and under stress.

[Jeff Leahy]

Dr. Brown says 'Medical Knowledge' and 'Anatomical Knowledge'. He uses both because he understands what they both mean. Hence why his suspect was a medical student.

You have been asked to reference any of the doctors or coroners saying 'surgical knowledge' or 'surgical skill' but your reply was this request was irrelevant.

Why is it Jeff? It's because you have no evidence any of them said this at all so to invoke 'surgical knowledge' is a strawman through and through. I have yet to see you or anyone else establish this 'surgical skill' hypothesis was contemporary.

Jack the Ripper had 'No" surgical knowledge…

So which suspects should we suppose you intend to illuminate?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

If credible means suspects mentioned at some point by police officials, out of that group i'll take Kosminski or Bury.

THe ripperology world has largely moved on since I started researching it. Today suspects who lived in Whitechapel and the general vicinity seem most probable given what is known about serial killers per ce…

There will always be the odd person, Patricai cornwall, Steven Knight or Batman, who will come up with wild theories…

But whoever Jack the Ripper was he likely lived and worked close to the murder scenes and travelled by foot, So the list of suspects can be narrowed down.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Well Jeff as you can plainly read, while you critic the medical knowledge believers as supporting Gull, you now have your own new multiple Jack the Rippers believer liking the idea Jack has no medical skill. They are on your team on this one, not the medical knowledge believers.

To say the Coroner said SURGICAL skill (your caps not mine) and to find he didn't say that is not simply irrelevant as you put it. It goes to show that when you raise up someone like Gull you do not seem to follow that neither Dr. Philips or Dr. Brown made any mention of a surgeon, which is what Gull was.

What Dr. Brown says clearly is that they have the medical knowledge to not just know where the anatomy is, but the way to remove it. This does not imply a surgeon or surgical skill but it does require medical skill (removed using methodology). For example, an anatomical pathologist is not a surgical pathologist. A student shadowing a doctor could learn the way to remove these organs.

Furthermore I find the idea of Jack the Butcher ridiculous. The inside of a cow, pig, horse are not even remotely like a humans. Our verticialness and gravity as well as other adaptations through natural selection have seen to that. The closest species is an ape like a gorilla, chimpanzee, bonoboo.

As far as I can tell your own reference from the A-Z which contains my reference of choice, Nick Warren, has given good reasons that remain unanswered while allowing for the neighsayers to realize how easy a modern simulation would be if they think JtR was simulating on horse/pig/cow guts. The fact is nobody has pulled this off because Nick Warren is standing there over a pile of these guts on a table without a carcass and you can already see that random smash and grab can never cut it (pun intended).

THen why did Jack the Ripper use a seven inch sharp knife and not a scalpel as a surgeon would have done?

[gnote]

I think by credible I have been Clear..

The suspects included at the time by various police sources and raised in 'the Definitive Story' documentary i.e. Chapman, Cutbush, Tumbelty, Druitt and Kosminski

Yours Jeff

PS although personally I have always entertain BURY… But thats just personal opinion

If credible means suspects mentioned at some point by police officials, out of that group i'll take Kosminski or Bury.

[Batman]

Dr Phipips, who was a rather old fashioned doctor believed the Chapman murderdesplayed signs of 'Surgical' knowledge, Dr Brown said 'anatomical' knowledge and Dr Bond said 'No knowledge'

Those are simply the facts
Yours Jeff

Dr. Brown says 'Medical Knowledge' and 'Anatomical Knowledge'. He uses both because he understands what they both mean. Hence why his suspect was a medical student.

You have been asked to reference any of the doctors or coroners saying 'surgical knowledge' or 'surgical skill' but your reply was this request was irrelevant.

Why is it Jeff? It's because you have no evidence any of them said this at all so to invoke 'surgical knowledge' is a strawman through and through. I have yet to see you or anyone else establish this 'surgical skill' hypothesis was contemporary.

[Jeff Leahy]

I've never ruled out Kosminski and have said previously i think he's one of the better suspects we have "on file". At the same time I think you need to be careful when using terms such as 'credible'.

Keep in mind i'm not saying these suspects are on equal terms but if you're "happy to take on board" credible alternatives have at this:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...d=1#post329425

I think by credible I have been Clear..

The suspects included at the time by various police sources and raised in 'the Definitive Story' documentary i.e. Chapman, Cutbush, Tumbelty, Druitt and Kosminski

Yours Jeff

PS although personally I have always entertain BURY… But thats just personal opinion, as I believe Jack lived close to and worked in Whitechapel, excluding Druit and Tumblety but possibly re-introducing other suspects like Fleming and Donovan.

[Jeff Leahy]

Well Jeff as you can plainly read, while you critic the medical knowledge believers as supporting Gull, you now have your own new multiple Jack the Rippers believer liking the idea Jack has no medical skill. They are on your team on this one, not the medical knowledge believers.

To say the Coroner said SURGICAL skill (your caps not mine) and to find he didn't say that is not simply irrelevant as you put it. It goes to show that when you raise up someone like Gull you do not seem to follow that neither Dr. Philips or Dr. Brown made any mention of a surgeon, which is what Gull was.

What Dr. Brown says clearly is that they have the medical knowledge to not just know where the anatomy is, but the way to remove it. This does not imply a surgeon or surgical skill but it does require medical skill (removed using methodology). For example, an anatomical pathologist is not a surgical pathologist. A student shadowing a doctor could learn the way to remove these organs.

Furthermore I find the idea of Jack the Butcher ridiculous. The inside of a cow, pig, horse are not even remotely like a humans. Our verticialness and gravity as well as other adaptations through natural selection have seen to that. The closest species is an ape like a gorilla, chimpanzee, bonoboo.

As far as I can tell your own reference from the A-Z which contains my reference of choice, Nick Warren, has given good reasons that remain unanswered while allowing for the neighsayers to realize how easy a modern simulation would be if they think JtR was simulating on horse/pig/cow guts. The fact is nobody has pulled this off because Nick Warren is standing there over a pile of these guts on a table without a carcass and you can already see that random smash and grab can never cut it (pun intended).

ITs an opinion Batman. Many have stood in the face of reality and declared such things..

However the facts are obvious to anyone wishing to look at the source materials and listen to people who have given many years to researching the subject (Something you will eventually learn) Dr Phipips, who was a rather old fashioned doctor believed the Chapman murderdesplayed signs of 'Surgical' knowledge, Dr Brown said 'anatomical' knowledge and Dr Bond said 'No knowledge'

Those are simply the facts

But whether the killer required 'Surgical' knowledge (which apparently he did NOT) anatomical knowledge, or as the most expert doctor said 'no' knowledge…Almost any of the main suspects might have committed the crimes…Druitt, Kosminski, Tumbelty or Chapman.

And indeed I can noty see any argument for alienating almost any suspect, perhaps Maybrick, but good luck arguing that on Matybrick threads.

However what you are seeking to do is dismiss Aaron Kosmnski as a potential suspect and in that your posts have been a complete and utter fail our

Yours Jeff