Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Jeff Leahy]

Do you have a link I can read up on this please. Thanks.

AH! it was some time ago… I was with Caz..most of the weekend.

guess…2012 Brick lane hotel conference

My partner is saying she has photos on her Facebook so I will try and pin down tomorrow…

But I think 2012…Jake and I gave a lecture at that conference on the Making of Definitive Story

Yours Jeff

PS for those on my Facebook…Rob Clack and Jake luukanen and Jeff Leahy and Mr Diddles…2011…doesn't time fly

[Batman]

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

I can only say that the last conference I was at Don Rumblow gave a lecture dismissing Stride. It was the same one I quoted Tom Wescott to him in questions and answers…

And for the record I'm with Tom

Do you have a link I can read up on this please. Thanks.

[Jeff Leahy]

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

I can only say that the last conference I was at Don Rumblow gave a lecture dismissing Stride. It was the same one I quoted Tom Wescott to him in questions and answers…

And for the record I'm with Tom


Or hadn't yet built up to the level described by Cohen when Aaron was confined to the asylum. Jacob Cohen only gave "evidence" when Aaron entered Colney Hatch.


Hi Scott Still haven't had a chance to chase your Cohen article..It gets busy here as I'm also trying to earn a living. But I am most interested in anything you have to add, as always

Many tHanks
Yours Jeff

PS Just out of humour and given my last post this is rather fun : http://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ronson_...sychopath_test

[Scott Nelson]

But the Fact that they released him at this time suggests that the madness described by Jacob Cohen…had seen a level of deterioration over the six month period.

Or hadn't yet built up to the level described by Cohen when Aaron was confined to the asylum. Jacob Cohen only gave "evidence" when Aaron entered Colney Hatch.

[Batman]

Yes a number of prominent Ripper theorists have excluded Stride including Don Rumblow. Her murder is certainly more problematic as a ripper victim, which is why I believe so many favour the Lawende conclusion.

Of the more prominent authors/historians it is Martin Fido who drops Stride. As far as I know Donald Rumbelow accepts Stride. I think he accepts canonicity. Evans seems to have doubts over MJK but that may have changed.

[Jeff Leahy]

Alcohol affects the mentally ill exactly the same as it affects you. It's a CNS depressant, it works as a depressant. It actually has little effect at all on schizophrenics, who take to drinking to blunt the delusions and hallucinations. And it works. Schizophrenia symptoms cause alcoholism. Not the other way around. And alcohol was used both then and now for self medicating Bipolar disorder. It can break a manic episode, where the vast majority of delusions and hallucinations occur. On the other hand, drinking while depressed is one of the most common predictors of a successful suicide, so it's certainly not a foolproof management plan.

Today of course you cannot consume alcohol if you are Schizophrenic or Bipolar because it nullifies the medication used to treat both disorders. A medicated, well managed Schizophrenic can trigger an attack by drinking, because the alcohol blocks the medication. The effect is exactly like stopping your meds entirely, with the added benefit of probably crapping out your kidneys. But no one in 1888 was medicated for Bipolar or Schizophrenia, so there was no drug interaction. There was no loss of control due to alcohol, because sufferers were not being controlled in any way.

The typical sequence of events is that an alcoholic Schizophrenic will start to relapse. They will hear voices, have compulsions, not irresistible as of yet, but frightening. That's when they start drinking. And it works to a small extent. The alcohol treats nothing, but when drunk they can ignore the symptoms. Until they can't. A drunk schizophrenic is more likely to out themselves as being in the midst of an episode because their filter is gone. But not by more than a few days, at which point the delusion will have taken such a hold that hiding the symptoms is impossible. Alcohol outs the sufferer, but does not cause the suffering.

There has long been the notion that alcohol makes schizophrenics violent. And that's true to an extent. 7% of alcoholic schizophrenics are violent while less than 1% of non alcoholic schizophrenics are violent. Of course, 35% of non mentally ill alcoholics are violent, so we are still left with the unfortunate truth that apparently mental illness pacifies the sufferer.

Cutting off the drink doesn't make a schizophrenic better. It simply forces them to deal with their symptoms while sober.

Somewhere on jtrforums is the Finland survey. Its quite unique as they are one of the few countries that categorise various mental symptoms when collating statistics. They conclude that Schizophrenics are in a slightly higher category to be violent than the average member of the population but this statistic could well be caused by increased statistical addiction to alcohol.

A bit chicken and egg. But if your saying that Schizophrenics are more dangerous when under the influence of Alcohol, then surely it follows that they are likely to be less dangerous once removed from that environment.

Indeed that is how I understood the condition would behave when talking with am expert in the field. Although obviously as you say, modern treatments involve drugs that wouldn't have been available back in 1888.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19488 Schizophrenia and Homocidal behaviour

Yours Jeff

[Errata]

It may also be that Aaron made improvement at first. Once he was cut off from the catalyst, alcohol, its what you would expect.

Schizophrenia is an illness that comes and goes. Like waves. People with Bi polar also have these manic phases. and again alcohol effects them in a different way to you or I , they are often compulsive and obsessive.

Yours Jeff

Alcohol affects the mentally ill exactly the same as it affects you. It's a CNS depressant, it works as a depressant. It actually has little effect at all on schizophrenics, who take to drinking to blunt the delusions and hallucinations. And it works. Schizophrenia symptoms cause alcoholism. Not the other way around. And alcohol was used both then and now for self medicating Bipolar disorder. It can break a manic episode, where the vast majority of delusions and hallucinations occur. On the other hand, drinking while depressed is one of the most common predictors of a successful suicide, so it's certainly not a foolproof management plan.

Today of course you cannot consume alcohol if you are Schizophrenic or Bipolar because it nullifies the medication used to treat both disorders. A medicated, well managed Schizophrenic can trigger an attack by drinking, because the alcohol blocks the medication. The effect is exactly like stopping your meds entirely, with the added benefit of probably crapping out your kidneys. But no one in 1888 was medicated for Bipolar or Schizophrenia, so there was no drug interaction. There was no loss of control due to alcohol, because sufferers were not being controlled in any way.

The typical sequence of events is that an alcoholic Schizophrenic will start to relapse. They will hear voices, have compulsions, not irresistible as of yet, but frightening. That's when they start drinking. And it works to a small extent. The alcohol treats nothing, but when drunk they can ignore the symptoms. Until they can't. A drunk schizophrenic is more likely to out themselves as being in the midst of an episode because their filter is gone. But not by more than a few days, at which point the delusion will have taken such a hold that hiding the symptoms is impossible. Alcohol outs the sufferer, but does not cause the suffering.

There has long been the notion that alcohol makes schizophrenics violent. And that's true to an extent. 7% of alcoholic schizophrenics are violent while less than 1% of non alcoholic schizophrenics are violent. Of course, 35% of non mentally ill alcoholics are violent, so we are still left with the unfortunate truth that apparently mental illness pacifies the sufferer.

Cutting off the drink doesn't make a schizophrenic better. It simply forces them to deal with their symptoms while sober.

[Chris]

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

I'd have thought that if he was a heavy drinker it would have been mentioned by Jacob Cohen to Dr Houchin.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

I think we don't know for certain is the answer to everyone of these questions Robert.

RE: Alcohol. Its common for Schizophrenics to become addicted to Alcohol, recently Grass and weed are common. And if we suppose aaron was the killer, Alcohol would be a catalyst that can turn people 'Psychotic'

So I'm saying if we suppose Aaron the Killer then Alcohol would seem a probable factor and once placed out of that environment you could expect him to improve for periods of time.

Schzophrenics can sometimes appear drunk also.

Aarons family later bought a pub so I think we can assume it wasn't against their culture to drink. Landlords usually do.

RE: His size and build. Its not known for certain in Autumn 1888. Could he appear more rounded. I have a picture of Morris Lubnowski in front of me and I'd say solid. Put a heavy trench Coat on and hunch his shoulders, perhaps the Skinney Taylor Schwartz would say broad shoulders.

But we have know way of knowing for certain

Yours Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

Maybe I've missed something, but is there any evidence that Aaron was a drinker? I know that BS man was supposed to be tipsy, but I thought Aaron's build was slight.

[Jeff Leahy]

But the Fact that they released him at this time suggests that the madness described by Jacob Cohen…had seen a level of deterioration over the six month period.

Might also explain why Anderson and Swanson believed they still might get a conviction if the ID happened shortly after July 1890?

Yours Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Yes I've noted this in the thread, a 'O' sometimes written as a 2 and Chis George seems to confirm this…

But isn't that even more odd? Is it being suggested that the patient might not be insane? Which is why he is released in three days?

Yours Jeff

Following an arrest or after being taken to a workhouse a person could only be lawfully detained for three days and then had to be taken before a justice to determine whether that person should be released or further detained. The Justice of the Peace had the power to then authorize a doctor to carry out a full mental assessment.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Chris]

But isn't that even more odd? Is it being suggested that the patient might not be insane? Which is why he is released in three days?

I think he was taken to the workhouse and it was suggested he was insane, and then he was assessed there. The first time they decided he wasn't certifiable, but the second time they decided he was.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff, if Aaron was admitted to a private asylum in spring 1889, then he could not have been there for over a year. This is because he was walking a dog at the end of 1889. And in mid-1890 he has his workhouse admission. Then in early 1891 he has his Colney Hatch admission.

Yes agreed. I'm suggesting that the private asylum was used on and off.

He first entered December 1888. Longer stay March 1889. Out late 1889 back in early 1890 but it had been made clear that they could no longer coup. These Private asylums were only designed as short stay answers.

Once it was clear Aaron wasn't getting better there wouldn't be much they could do..

It may also be that Aaron made improvement at first. Once he was cut off from the catalyst, alcohol, its what you would expect.

Schizophrenia is an illness that comes and goes. Like waves. People with Bi polar also have these manic phases. and again alcohol effects them in a different way to you or I , they are often compulsive and obsessive.

Yours Jeff

PS This link takes you to rob Houses original Colney hatch photos just incase anyone following hasn't seen them: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=240418
The letter from Sir Robert Anderson is interesting and something I had not seen before

[Jeff Leahy]

That "2y" is a misreading of "Qy" - "Query".

Yes I've noted this in the thread, a 'O' sometimes written as a 2 and Chis George seems to confirm this…

But isn't that even more odd? Is it being suggested that the patient might not be insane? Which is why he is released in three days?

Yours Jeff