Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[GUT]

But even the ID, if it did occur, is only of someone seen with a victim, doesn't prove they were the killer, sure makes them a POI, but that's it.

[Elamarna]

We don't know anything about the conditions in which the ID was conducted though, do we, (and we have to suppose it did happen, as Anderson and Swanson said so.)

Were either of these police officials present at the ID or was a report made to Anderson from a police officer? Was there some sort of an identification parade at the Seaside Home, or was he, as Anderson wrote instantly 'confronted' by this witness. Would that sort of identification stand up in court if Kosminki was charged with murder?

I suppose the witness was Lawende. However, he may have used his religion as an excuse in case Kosminski was ever brought to trial. Some people in the days of capital punishment were just very queasy about appearing in court and sending another human being to the gallows on their testimony. This was probably magnified in a case of a man seen for only a few seconds from some distance away in very poor light.

Hi Rosella,

Those are the very type of questions which need to be asked.

And of course without knowing who the witness was, we cannot be aware of what they were saying they saw:


The obvious two are

Lawende: someone seen with possible suspect.

He is surely the weakest of those in providing a convection., he did not get a good view, maybe mistaken about the ID of the victim. and it was not at the murder scene. the same applies if it were not him, but one of his two friends.


Schwartz: someone attacking at murder scene.

If believed his report would be highly incriminating. very strong against anyone he may have ID'd


We also have the possibility that the story of White, contains a kernel of truth, that is a police office saw someone leaving Mitre Square.

Or we have the admittedly unprovable scenario that he was seen leaving Millers Court. either by an unknown witness or by one we know whom may have given a different story.

Both of those give someone leaving the murder scene. strong evidence to convict.

I believe an ID did take place, if we actually knew what and where the "Seaside Home" it would help; of course there are so many views on those question too.

Regards

Steve

[Steadmund Brand]

I was always in the camp that Kosminski/ Cohen was the best suspect... however, once Mike Hawley's BRILLIANT presentation on Tumblety at Rippercon is on as a Rippercast, some people may change their minds (not saying I have.. but gives you lots to think about!!!)

Steadmund Brand

[Fleetwood Mac]

We don't know that the ID even took place for sure and even I it did take place was it even Kosminski who was picked out?

If you believe the Marginalia is genuine, then I would take it as read that there was an ID and he was picked out.

The fact that we don't know where it took place or the identity of the witness is simply not a good case for suggesting Swanson was confused due to old age or some such. Many have suggested this but it doesn't wash with me.

If the Marginalia is genuine then I would conclude that this Kosminski is a very good bet for Jack, even though I personally don't fancy him for it.

There's also the fact that there were important people on the ground, such as Abberline, who appear to have been oblivious to this ID, and that is a conundrum.

Kosminski's behaviour, such as eating out of a gutter, simply does not tie in with the pattern of behaviour of which we are accustomed to when it comes to serial killers. Yes, some are diagnosed as psychotic but they can keep it together because they're having the time of their lives - there's a future for them to look forward to even if it isn't most people's future and they simply do not eat out of gutters.

For me, I would say no to Kosminski and I think there's a rabbit away here somewhere as this person eating of gutters and supposedly threatening a close relative with a knife is just not serial killer territory.

Nor is Bury to be honest. Same problem.

[John Wheat]

To Fleetwood Mac

I have to disagree with your last point. I don't see how you can compare Bury to Kosminski. Bury matches every major psyche profile of Jack and wether you like it or not Bury was in all likeliness a psychopath. The major problem with Bury is that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury to the same extent as Mary Jane Kelly. However had he done this he would almost certainly have been hung as the Ripper. Whereas Bury nearly avoided the hangman.

Cheers John

[John G]

We don't know anything about the conditions in which the ID was conducted though, do we, (and we have to suppose it did happen, as Anderson and Swanson said so.)

Were either of these police officials present at the ID or was a report made to Anderson from a police officer? Was there some sort of an identification parade at the Seaside Home, or was he, as Anderson wrote instantly 'confronted' by this witness. Would that sort of identification stand up in court if Kosminki was charged with murder?

I suppose the witness was Lawende. However, he may have used his religion as an excuse in case Kosminski was ever brought to trial. Some people in the days of capital punishment were just very queasy about appearing in court and sending another human being to the gallows on their testimony. This was probably magnified in a case of a man seen for only a few seconds from some distance away in very poor light.

Hi Rosella,

Confrontation ID's were allowed at the time, and may still be permissible today in certain circumstances: see Police and Criminal Evidence Act, 1984, Code D, para 3.23. In these circumstances, a confrontation doesn't require the suspects consent.

This has also been discussed, in some detail, on a previous Casebook thread about three years ago:http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-7502.html

[Fleetwood Mac]

To Fleetwood Mac

I have to disagree with your last point. I don't see how you can compare Bury to Kosminski. Bury matches every major psyche profile of Jack and wether you like it or not Bury was in all likeliness a psychopath. The major problem with Bury is that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury to the same extent as Mary Jane Kelly. However had he done this he would almost certainly have been hung as the Ripper. Whereas Bury nearly avoided the hangman.

Cheers John

John,

The major problems with Bury are as follows:

1) Serial killers in the mould of mutilators do not kill their wives.

2) Bury was too much of a drunk down on his luck type. Serial killers have a lot to look forward to, whereas Bury appears to have been on a spiral.

There are far too many drunks and idiots in the suspect list when there really should be more unassuming types.

[Errata]

John,

The major problems with Bury are as follows:

1) Serial killers in the mould of mutilators do not kill their wives.

2) Bury was too much of a drunk down on his luck type. Serial killers have a lot to look forward to, whereas Bury appears to have been on a spiral.

There are far too many drunks and idiots in the suspect list when there really should be more unassuming types.

We're looking for men who are losers, not men who are lost?

[John Wheat]

John,

The major problems with Bury are as follows:

1) Serial killers in the mould of mutilators do not kill their wives.

2) Bury was too much of a drunk down on his luck type. Serial killers have a lot to look forward to, whereas Bury appears to have been on a spiral.

There are far too many drunks and idiots in the suspect list when there really should be more unassuming types.

To Fleetwood Mac

1) Ellen may have known Bury was the Ripper and threatened to spill the beans which may have forced Bury's hand.

2) I think you'll find numerous Serial Killers are drunks.

Cheers John

[caz]

Christie was a sexual serial killer who went on to murder his wife. I'm not sure if it was because she may have suspected him. Maybe he just got fed up with her and had no off switch by then.

Love,

Caz
X

[Aldebaran]

Although Aaron Kosminski remains a suspect, I doubt he can be considered the best one. Kosminski, although a nutcase, does not seem to me to have been crazy/evil in the crafty way serial killers are. Although Peter Sutcliffe, for one, masturbated over the bodies of some of his victims, there was no one about. Kosminski, with his wanking in public, was too obvious. He strikes me as having been a paranoid schizophrenic with little to no guile, who was an embarrassment to his family but little else. Most serial killers were not obvious at all, in fact lived ordinary lives that served as a pretty good cover for their devious ways. Of course, not Ed Gein, but that guy seems to have been in a class by himself.

[Steadmund Brand]

To answer the question....

Yes.. I think he is still the best suspect we have, only because so many other suspects don't make sense... you really have to stretch to put them at the scene etc....now...that being said I'm not convinced he was the "Ripper" but, still the "best" suspect...

Hawley's argument that Tumblety is a good suspect as far as Scotland Yard is concerned is valid.... very valid... Scotland Yard did think him guilty of SOMETHING...but again...doesn't mean he was Jack...

I think a more realistic question should be is Kosminski/Cohen a valid suspect..as put forth by Prof. Fido....that makes a bit more sense to me... but again... I am not convinced either way..

And I agree with John Wheat... Many serial killers are drunks...in fact I would think any (or most anyway) non sociopathic killers would be drunks (or on some sort of drug) as a way of dealing with what they have done...I am not stating that as fact....just my opinion

Steadmund Brand

[Aldebaran]

I think a more realistic question should be is Kosminski/Cohen a valid suspect..as put forth by Prof. Fido....that makes a bit more sense to me... but again... I am not convinced either way..

And I agree with John Wheat... Many serial killers are drunks...in fact I would think any (or most anyway) non sociopathic killers would be drunks (or on some sort of drug) as a way of dealing with what they have done...I am not stating that as fact....just my opinion

It was Kosminski/Abrahams. Cohen was the alter ego of a family member known as Lubnowski. We were discussing this in another thread just yesterday.

Drunks--you think? I am far from being an expert on the serial killers of the UK and the US and don't know their drinking habits. But non-sociopathic? How is that possible. How can an individual commit such crimes without actually being a psychopath/sociopath? Obviously, every single serial murderer was lacking in empathy.

Well, a paranoid schizophrenic could become a serial killer [some did] but the Ripper seems to have been quite cunning in a way that just doesn't seem to fit with Kosminski. And where would that guy, a hair dresser by trade, when he worked, have learned to remove organs? I don't think one gets that information as a barber's apprentice.

[Steadmund Brand]

It was Kosminski/Abrahams. Cohen was the alter ego of a family member known as Lubnowski. We were discussing this in another thread just yesterday.

Drunks--you think? I am far from being an expert on the serial killers of the UK and the US and don't know their drinking habits. But non-sociopathic? How is that possible. How can an individual commit such crimes without actually being a psychopath/sociopath? Obviously, every single serial murderer was lacking in empathy.

Well, a paranoid schizophrenic could become a serial killer [some did] but the Ripper seems to have been quite cunning in a way that just doesn't seem to fit with Kosminski. And where would that guy, a hair dresser by trade, when he worked, have learned to remove organs? I don't think one gets that information as a barber's apprentice.

Because I said non-sociopath... not psychopath....two different things....it is possible for a psychopath to feel empathy.. recent studies have shown this...and if one were to be a psychopath.. and feel empathy, I'm pretty sure they would "self medicate" in some way, Again, I am no expert either, but there are several "serial killers" who were drunks.. Gacey, Bundy and Dahmer, Rosemary West was a drug addict.. just to name a few

Steadmund Brand

[Elamarna]

It was Kosminski/Abrahams. Cohen was the alter ego of a family member known as Lubnowski. We were discussing this in another thread just yesterday.

Drunks--you think? I am far from being an expert on the serial killers of the UK and the US and don't know their drinking habits. But non-sociopathic? How is that possible. How can an individual commit such crimes without actually being a psychopath/sociopath? Obviously, every single serial murderer was lacking in empathy.

Well, a paranoid schizophrenic could become a serial killer [some did] but the Ripper seems to have been quite cunning in a way that just doesn't seem to fit with Kosminski. And where would that guy, a hair dresser by trade, when he worked, have learned to remove organs? I don't think one gets that information as a barber's apprentice.

Hi Aldebaran

I think you will find that when Steadmund Brand mentioned "Kosminski/Cohen", he was alluding the "the theory put forward by Martin Fido around 1988.
That was that there was a mix up over the kosminski name and a person David Cohen, a name which was later given as Aaron Davis Cohen, was locked up in colony hatch and was the killer.
He was no known relation of Mr K.

In addition the only information on AK's mental state is from the time of his detention. Even then the records are far from complete.
Given that he appeared to be ok in court in 1889, while he certainly was not in 1891, it really is not possible to say how he was, or appeared to be in 1888. That of course includes his shall we call it, debatable habits in public!

I see you believe he had learnt how to remove organs?
Well yes the killer could have been trained, equally he may not have been. that as I am surely you are aware is an ongoing debate, and probably always will be.
I am not convinced such debatable points should be used to rule a candidate in or out of being the killer, if you view it differently fair enough.

Personally I think he is the best of a bad bunch, he is very possible, but the evidence is lacking to take that to a probable.

In the end, he is the ONLY suspect named by more than one senior police officer at or around the time of the murders. Agreed we do not know why, but there must have been some evidence of some sort to allow this surely.
On those grounds alone he should not be dismissed at present.

All the best and a belated welcome to the forums.

Regards

Steve