Is Kosminski still the best suspect we have?

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Scott,

Agree, whether they knew or thought he was the murderer or not, the fact that he was mentaly sick person, means he needed medical treatment, and that will help them getting him out of the police hands.


The Baron

But according to swanson the police had him and then took him back to his brothers house, would they have done that to a mentally sick person who had supposed just been identified as a serial killer of course they wouldnt.

If this mythical ID had taken place they would have taken him and got him certified to keep him off the streets not dropped him off at his brothers house.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Baron]

Trevor wrote:

-- Is there any evidence to support this ?

You used the term ID parade 5 times in one post alone without anything to support it.

But we have evidence to support it was a witness-suspect confrontation:


Anderson:


"I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him"



The Baron

[The Baron]

Hi Scott,

Agree, whether they knew or thought he was the murderer or not, the fact that he was mentaly sick person, means he needed medical treatment, and that will help them getting him out of the police hands.


The Baron

[Scott Nelson]

On top of all that, Baron, Kosminski's family probably interfered with the identification and confinement proceedings, causing the police to either botch up the whole process, or severely limiting what they (police) legally could have done to secure a conviction.

[The Baron]

Hi Simon,

I agree.


The Baron

[Simon Wood]

Hi Baron,

Sims was not what you might call a reliable source.

On 11th February 1907 Macnaghten wrote to Sims—

“. . . It may also save you the trouble of research if I give you the times & places of Jack the Ripper’s pleasantries.”

There followed the locations, dates and names of the five canonical victims, which Sims used in his 22nd September 1907 article for Lloyds Weekly News.

It does seem incredible that, nineteen years after the event, Sims had not got these basic facts to hand.

Regards,

Simon

[The Baron]

"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square" - Macnaghten 1894

"One was a Polish Jew, a known lunatic, who was at large in the district of Whitechapel at the time of the murder, and who, having afterwards developed homicidal tendencies, was confined to an asylum. This man was said to resemble the murderer by the one person who got a glimpse of him - the police-constable in Mitre Court. " - Griffiths, 1898

"A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court. Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body." Sagar 1905.

"The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole, that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder." - Sims (1907) - source is probably Griffiths.

"One man only, a policeman, saw him leaving the place in which he had just accomplished a fiendish deed, but failed, owing to the darkness, to get a good view of him. A little later the policeman stumbled over the lifeless body of the victim." - Sims


James Blenkingsop - standing watch over some street improvements in St. James Place, when a well dressed man approached and asked, “Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?” Blenkingsop replied that he had seen some people pass by, but added, “I didn’t take any notice.” The man then went away.

"I feel sure we knew the man, but we could prove nothing. Eventually we got him incarcerated in a lunatic asylum, and the series of murders came to an end" - Sagar 1905


"We had good reason to suspect a certain man who worked in 'Butcher's-row,' Aldgate," he said, "and we watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities." -Sagar 1905


"There were several other officers with me, and I think there can be no harm in stating that the opinion of most of them was that the man they were watching had something to do with the crimes" - Cox 1906



Kosminski was confronted for identification two times, one by a fellow jew, and one by a City PC.


Kosminski is the best suspect we have.




The Baron

[Trevor Marriott]

Thats how I understand it too Darryl, it was a confrontation of a suspect and a witness.

Trevor,

the Marginalia is reliable enough to make Kosminski a suspect, not a convicted murderer, Swanson knows about the case more than all of us combined, and more than anyone at all, I don't have reasons to doubt his words.


There was a suspect-witness confrontation.

The Baron

Well you need to take those rose tinted spectacles off they are clouding your judgment

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Daryl
see below

This is from the police code of 1984 - A confrontation is where the suspect is directly confronted by the witness. This procedure may be used when it is not possible to arrange a video identification, identification parade, or group identification.

Could something similar not have happened in 1888 were a suspect refuses to attend an ID parade

Is there any evidence to support this ?

Even in 1888 the police cannot simply drag someone off the street or from anywhere and subject that person to any form of ID procedure.
if they are looking to consider a prosecution against any person then they have to abide by the guidelines. In order for the procedure to be legal the suspect would have to have been arrested and this is where this whole Kosminski issue falls flat, There is no record or any mention in any other document that Kosminski was ever arrested or interviewed

Also I wrote this in a previous post - In connection with the arrest of a lunatic at Holloway, it appears that he has been missing from his friends for some time now. The detectives have been very active in prosecuting their inquiries concerning him, and it is believed the result, so far, increases their suspicion. He is at present confined in the asylum at Grove-road, Bow.

There is no evidence that Kosminski was at the time of this mythical Id parade incarcerated in an asylum if that had have been the case the police would not have returned him to an address outside of the asylum after the parade

In the early hours of 12 September Isenschmid was arrested and taken to Holloway Police Station. Judged insane, he was sent to the Islington Workhouse and from thence, the same day, to Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Fairfield Road, Bow.

[Sounds familiar with Kosminski]

But not subjected to an Id parade

Dr Mickle, resident medical officer at Grove Hall, was so concerned about his patient’s health that he declined to permit the witnesses to confront him. [Again Kosminski] On 19 September, the date of our last police report on Isenschmid, the doctor was still obdurate and we do not know whether Mrs Fiddymont and her witnesses ever did identify the suspect.

There is no evidence to show that Kosminski was in an asylum prior to being taken to this mythical Id parade, also my reply above also applies to this !

Abberline himself, in a report of 19 September, let that particular cat out of the bag. There he suggests that the chief police surgeon or one of the divisional surgeons be requested to contact Dr Mickle in order to expedite arrangements for the witnesses to see Isenschmid because ‘time is of the greatest importance in this case, [Kosminski being sent to the asylum in a very short space of time] not only with regard to the question of identity, but also for the purpose of allaying the strong public feeling that exists.’

There is nothing in this report to show that the request was not to simply organise an official ID parade

Regards Darryl

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Baron]

Thats how I understand it too Darryl, it was a confrontation of a suspect and a witness.

Trevor,

the Marginalia is reliable enough to make Kosminski a suspect, not a convicted murderer, Swanson knows about the case more than all of us combined, and more than anyone at all, I don't have reasons to doubt his words.


There was a suspect-witness confrontation.



The Baron

[Darryl Kenyon]

This is from the police code of 1984 - A confrontation is where the suspect is directly confronted by the witness. This procedure may be used when it is not possible to arrange a video identification, identification parade, or group identification.

Could something similar not have happened in 1888 were a suspect refuses to attend an ID parade

Also I wrote this in a previous post - In connection with the arrest of a lunatic at Holloway, it appears that he has been missing from his friends for some time now. The detectives have been very active in prosecuting their inquiries concerning him, and it is believed the result, so far, increases their suspicion. He is at present confined in the asylum at Grove-road, Bow.

There are at present three cases of suspicion. 1. The lunatic Isensmith a Swiss arrested at Holloway who is now in an asylum at Bow & arrangements are being made to ascertain whether he is the man who was seen on the morning of the murder in a public house by Mrs Fiddymont.

In the early hours of 12 September Isenschmid was arrested and taken to Holloway Police Station. Judged insane, he was sent to the Islington Workhouse and from thence, the same day, to Grove Hall Lunatic Asylum, Fairfield Road, Bow.

[Sounds familiar with Kosminski]

Dr Mickle, resident medical officer at Grove Hall, was so concerned about his patient’s health that he declined to permit the witnesses to confront him. [Again Kosminski] On 19 September, the date of our last police report on Isenschmid, the doctor was still obdurate and we do not know whether Mrs Fiddymont and her witnesses ever did identify the suspect.

Abberline himself, in a report of 19 September, let that particular cat out of the bag. There he suggests that the chief police surgeon or one of the divisional surgeons be requested to contact Dr Mickle in order to expedite arrangements for the witnesses to see Isenschmid because ‘time is of the greatest importance in this case, [Kosminski being sent to the asylum in a very short space of time] not only with regard to the question of identity, but also for the purpose of allaying the strong public feeling that exists.’

Regards Darryl

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

The identification as I understand it was not at the high standerds you describe, there were difficulties which we don't know, and that Macnaghten didn't mention it maybe he didn't know of it, or that he only knew it was a falied atempt to bring evidence against Kosminski, we just don't know

If the police wanted to try to identify the killer and secure a conviction they would have adhered to the identification guidleines as set out by Sir Howard Vincent in the police codes. It is highly unusual both then and now for a suspect to be taken to a witness for the purpose of conducting an Id parade. The police have to form a parade of at least 8 persons of similar description a logistical nitemare for them away from a police station.

To convey a suspect to a location where an ID was taking place would have involved a number of police officers of different ranks who would have had to have been present when the ID parade took place and would have known of the positive ID outcome. Do you not think it is strange that no other officer other than Swanson mentions such an important event in the Ripper investigation over the ensuing years.

Macnaghten would have had to authorise it so he must have known about it if in fact it took place.

There is no mention by Major Smith in assisting the Met in keeping watch on the suspect day and night as the marginalia suggests do you not think he would have known all about it

If you have a copy of my book "jack the Ripper-the real truth" there is a complete chapter on the Swanson marginalia and the reasons why I suggest it is flawed.

The Marginalia is as reliable as a chocolate teapot

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Simon Wood]

Hi Baron,

I know nothing about Israel Lipsky except that he murdered Miriam Angel and was thus executed for his trouble.

What has this got to do with a retired policeman fingering someone called Kosminski for the Whitechapel murders?

Regards,

Simon

[The Baron]

Hi Simon,

I would like to know your opinion on the case of Israel Lipsky murdering Miriam Angel

" In the event, the jury took only eight minutes to find Lipski guilty and he was sentenced to hang. The verdict, however, aroused immediate controversy and a press campaign to reprieve Lipski was orchestrated by William Thomas Stead, editor of the Pall Mall Gazette. Even Queen Victoria was said to be troubled by the prospect of Lipski being executed solely on the evidence that had been presented to the court.^[3] As a result of this mounting public disquiet, the execution was postponed for one week while Matthews and the trial judge, James Fitzjames Stephen, met to consider a reprieve. While they were meeting, however, Lipski allegedly broke down and made a full confession to the East End rabbi and community spokesman Simeon Singer, claiming that his motive had been robbery and not, as had been claimed by the prosecution, rape"


Do you think he was guilty?!

I believe this a key to solve this case and maybe all started after this conviction.


The Baron

[The Baron]

Kosminsky is the best suspect that we have.

If you know of a better suspect then please name him.

Being a suspect doest meen he is convicted guilty.

Against Kosminsky there is an identification and many sircumstances that we now after +130 years don't know.

We wish there were more, thats why we see people worshiping a proven hoax, others promoting a witness as the lone murderer of every woman and her dog in Whitechapel, it is this state of lack of information and doubting in everything that shakes those beautiful minds and imaginations with desire to solve the case.

They may have solved it back then.



The Baron