Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[lynn cates]

prototype

Hello Jonathan, Jeff. I agree that the Sadler "ID" may or may not work.

But if you look at the Wirtkofsky/Loewenheim ID, you MAY have the prototype of Swanson's musings.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John,
Well, yes, all relevant & well worth the thought but what if:

1) Jane Simpson was given the shawl by the Macatto family when she worked for them ( Abraham Macatto was known to be a very benevolent man).

2) Family tales have become a little 'twisted' over the years & stories were added as the shawl was handed down so....

3) Amos Simpson is actually irrelevant if the above two are plausible.

4) DNA from an Ashkenazi Jew would be possible if the shawl didn't firstly belong to the Macatto family, but one of the congregation at synagogue ( ok so this is a bit far fetched) and then

5) Russell Edwards wishing that he'd looked at Jane Simpson's premarital employment record before taking it for granted that the Simpson family tales were true.

Food for thought anyway....
Amanda

Yes, I must confess that I haven't really kept up with progress on the other thread! My understanding is that Edwards referred to the family story that Amos Simpson had been present at the murder scene from where he'd taken the shawl. However, I agree that he seems to have taken this at face value without doing any independent research himself. I also agree that family stories can get seriously distorted over the years, in this case a kind of generational Chinese whispers (well, not necessarily whispering!) played out over more than a century. In fact, I would be amazed if the story was anything like completely accurate.

Moreover, as I indicated in my very first post on these boards I don't think that the DNA evidence is without merit The article that I cited on that post suggested that Kosminski had an unusually haplogroup sub type, T1a1, which was estimated to apply to only 7200 Londoners out of an 1888 population of 6 million. It has also been said, I believe, that Eddowes' mtdna has a rare genetic mutation, so the fact that genetic material, relating to both Eddowes and Kosminski, have appeared on the same article seems significant.

However, there are issues. Firstly London's population in 1888 was 5.4 million and not 6 million, although this would presumably mean that Kosminski's haplogroup sub type would relate to even less individuals in 1888, say, around 6500.

Secondly, the accuracy of the article's conclusions have been challenged. This article suggests that haplogroup T1 represents 2% of overall genetic variability in Western Europe and 3% in Eastern Europe, with T1a1 representing 80% of the T1 total, i.e 1.6-2.4% of overall genetic variability: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...4/#!po=21.4286. This suggests that it is far more common type than has been suggested.

Thirdly, clear provenance. without that we do not know where the DNA was deposited or even in which year, As things stand, it doesn't seem very scientific to just focus on 5.4-6 million Londoners living in 1888 as your base point. Hopefully, the continued research of yourself and others will help to clarify matters a little more- especially as Edwards doesn't seem to have done any research into provenance. I hope if you make a major breakthrough he'll offer to share some of the royalties!

Finally, I think I'm going to take a lie down! All of this technical stuff is beginning to make my brain hurt!

Best wishes,

John

[Amanda]

Hello Amanda. Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I'm determined to get an answer to this one way or another

Wondering if I now check the West London synagogue seating records I'll find Aaron Kosminski sitting next to Abraham Macatto!!

Amanda

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jonathan, Jeff. I agree that the Sadler "ID" may or may not work.

But if you look at the Wirtkofsky/Loewenheim ID, you MAY have the prototype of Swanson's musings.

Cheers.
LC

Yeah if only Sadler was Jewish it might work

[John G]

Hello Jason.

"I think too many people want this to be genuine and it quite simply isn't. We had all this with the diary 20 years ago and the fact we were never told where it had come from destroyed it from the beginning. A lot of people are going to join Casebook because of shawlgate, however, a lot of people are going to get fed up and quit Casebook because of it."

Excellent synopsis.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I think anyone who has been interested in Ripperology for any length of time- in my case since the Michael Caine film in 1988, although seriously for about the last 15 years- learns to accept the fact that any new evidence is likely to be a case of one step forward and at least one step back! You might agree that it actually becomes quite therapeutic after a while- learning how to graciously accept defeat! I sense that a lot of new posters have had similar experiences because, like me, they've been interested in the subject for many years- i believe Amanda said she had.

For myself, over the years I've been convinced that the perpetrator has been Tumblety, Kosminski, Bury, Mann ( I still quite like him as a suspect, although I think MJ Trow could have made a better case!)

I'm pretty sure all of this evidence will prove inconclusive, at which point I intend to present to the Board incontrovertible evidence in support of my new favourite suspect...Dr Rees Llewellyn! Well, that is until someone, possibly yourself, points out that he was salmon fishing in Aberdeenshire during one of the murders!

[lynn cates]

intrepid

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

Then you, too, are intrepid.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Jewish

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

Well, Wirtkofsky and Loewenhein were.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Inverness

Hello John. Thanks. I know what you mean.

Say, I thought he was in Inverness? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Anyone else notice that Lynn's posts are always two lines? I want to know why, and I won't rest until I get to the bottom of this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Trevor Marriott]

Thats all wild speculation.. The Sadler ID doesn't fit at all..

Yours Jeff

PS Many thanks for Info Amanda

It fits better than the Kosminski ID ! At least we know he was in a home ! with the the word sea in its name !

[GUT]

Anyone else notice that Lynn's posts are always two lines? I want to know why, and I won't rest until I get to the bottom of this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

It's in his DNA!

[pinkmoon]

It's in his DNA!

Definitely.Not.Aaron

[Fisherman]

lynn cates:

Hello Christer. Thanks.

My pleasure.

"So where's the list of psychotic killers who left no clues, who were silent and who got away with multiple murder?"

If they got away, how can they be listed?

How clever, Lynn - but I will tell you: They can get away with two or more murders but then get caught. Like Ridgway. Like Sutcliffe. Like Rader. Like Lucas. Like Dahmer.

Should I go on? Or are you catching my drift? Good!

So where´s the list?

"When I get that, I will give you a much longer list, a list of psychopathic killers with an occupation that gave them reason to be in the midst of a killing zone without being suspected, who killed multiple times and got away with it for the longest time."

And hopefully, they will be 19th C blokes.

What a worthless argument. Not that you could produce a better one from where you stand, but still...!

"Statistically, you are cannon fodder, and you should know it."

Well, given that ALL suspects--including Cross--are less that 50%, we ALL are--at least, statistically speaking.

No, we are not. Those of us who are abiding by statistics do not allow ourselves to trip over useless suggestions about psychotics being credible serialists with a propensity to pull of a string of murders uncaught.

"And as long as we cannot conclusively name the killer, statistics is what we lean against."

No, not by a long shot.

Oh yes, we do.

"That should put an end to the discussion."

Given this is a Kosminski thread, perhaps it should not have started?

So here´s your chance to withdraw and save the topic, Lynn.

Kosminski, by the way, was seemingly a man given to psychotic episodes.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Definitely.Not.Aaron

Lol!

Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Anyone else notice that Lynn's posts are always two lines? I want to know why, and I won't rest until I get to the bottom of this.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Lynn pays for his internet by the word....