Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Fabio Sanvitale]

In which other way?

If the DNA is spot on, all we know is that both came into contact with the "shawl".

Good morning GUT,
ok...both came into contact, right...but in which other ways the Kosminski's semen can be gone on that shawl? If we don't think to an encounter, it's difficult to imagine other ways...it's the simplest answer, in an Occam-razor vision.

[Errata]

Hi, Errata.
Firstly let me make clear to everyone, I'm not here to defend the 'shawl' theory.
You state that the date range for the shawl is wrong. Certainly, if there was a claim that the shawl was manufactured in 1888, the style and design would be inconsistent with that date. However, I don't think anyone is claiming 1888 as a date of manufacture.
It is likely, given the visual evidence we have seen, that the shawl dates from sometime between the early 1820's to the late 1840's. By 1888 it would be as out of date, in terms of fashion and style, as flares are today.
The good condition it was apparently in at that time could indicate that the person it belonged to took some care over its appearance, so we might conjecture that it was perhaps handed down to her from her mother or from a lady whose house she once worked in. How ever it came into her possession, we have no reason to state that simply because she was poor she couldn't own it. (I know you didn't state that but many others have)

If you were to attempt what you are suggesting, you'd have to firstly discover a shawl that has got little or no provenance. You wouldn't want some antique dealer popping up in a months time proving he'd bought it at a jumble sale in Scotland and then sold it on to you.

I'll be intrigued to learn how it is that you propose to do this in so short a time.
Thanks, Caligo

The two weeks part was a bit of a throw away line, but it wouldn't take much. The mDNA part of it would require some research. My theory is that a Tallis that comes from that era would have plenty of the requisite DNA on it (though I pray to god not sperm), given the close relationship of all Ashkenazi Jews, but the research-y bit was built into the two weeks. But transferring mDNA from a tallis to shawl would not be hard. Remember it's all about getting close enough to make the argument. Not getting a match.

As for the shawl, That I could do in 48 hours, right now. Because it just so happens I have fabric from the Victorian era, and I even have antique thread, though the thread itself does not date back that far. Someone would have to specifically date the thread, and that's a level of detail that doesn't happen until people specifically test for forgery. And dating is not exact, especially with silk, so there's a ton of wiggle room. And the fabric I have is appropriate for making such a shawl. It's not floral, but I can get floral from the same guy I got this amaranth leaf pattern from. The leaves cost me 30 dollars a yard. I have four yards, and I'd really only need one, but a little extra allows me to piece the pattern together so that I can match it at the seams. Fringe is ridiculously easy to make, just a little time consuming. And since it is essentially just unweaving the pattern, the dating will work there too. It's exactly how the fringe was made on the shawl in question, so we know that works.

The pattern of the shawl is wrong. It's a rectangle, it should be a triangle, or 3/4s of the way to a giant square. The rectangle (table runner) pattern that is not lace is more modern than 1888. Or it should come straight from India. But it doesn't. Also, for some really strange reason, one third of the shawl is blue floral, the rest is brown. Even assuming that the the blue floral on the other side is just missing, the shawl was certainly not manufactured that way. There are proportions to such things that are adhered to because it makes the manufacturing process easier. That is well out of proportion. The whole thing is just weird. It's definitely a kluge, but that in and of itself doesn't mean it isn't period. The shape of the shawl is definitely odd for that period. The size of the print on silk is a little odd for that period. The pattern itself is a little too... impressionistic. But it is not as architectural as one would expect. And the pattern roller was apparently tiny, which is also odd. I mean, if you google images of Victorian shawls, you'll see what I mean. This shawl is off.

And let's talk about silk for a minute. Silk is amazing. It is the cocoon of a silk worm. We think it's common enough because we can get any number of silky things. Except most of what we get isn't silk. We have silk alternatives now the Victorians didn't have. At least until 1891. And even today it's easily $20 a yard. Also during the Victorian era, the was a silk shortage because of a devastating plague killing silk worms. The European silk industry declined to almost nothing. Pasteur worked on it. Silk was incredibly valuable. So how does an Unfortunate and an alcoholic get her hands on a good yard and a half of silk? And how does her companion not make a big deal out of getting that shawl back because it would be worth quite a bit at the pawn shop? Silk neckerchiefs aren't enough to silk to matter, but this shawl? Yeah. That's money. And there's no way people didn't know she had it. So why aren't they asking about it? Why isn't there an assumption that the killer took a (comparatively) valuable shawl? Why does no one talk about that big piece of silk?

[Fisherman]

Strictly speaking it is not usually an occupation that puts a serial killer in a killing zone. Nor in contact with potential victims. Typically serial killers will arrange their leisure around hunting, and will hunt target rich environments. But they still tend to obey they "don't **** where you eat" rule.

Hi Errata!

Yes, of course serialists will mainy kill in their spare time! However, it also applies that some of them have had occupations that have given them the means to traverse - as you put it - hunting target rich environments, and some have taken advantage of it. That´s why we have a plethora of different "highway killers", for example.
Overall, the observation that they tend not to crap where they eat is a useful one.
Psychotics would not observe that rule.

The best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

[Post deleted]

[Amanda]

Update on coincidences...

Hi All,
Just thought I'd give you a quick update on some research I've done into Amos Simpson's wife, Jane, in case you missed the thread on the other page.

Before they married, in 1871, Jane was working for Abraham Macatto, founder of the West London Synagogue for British Jews. This particular synagogue was set up in 1842 to celebrate the unity between Sephardi & Ashkenazi Jews.
It is listed that many of the congregation came from Ukraine.

May have no relevance here at all, but working in that particular household would be the ideal place to find or be given an Eastern European shawl.
I am aware that Abraham Macatto was a British-born Jew but there are numerous newspaper articles about the people his family interacted with & the places they travelled.

Amanda

[pinkmoon]

Hi All,
Just thought I'd give you a quick update on some research I've done into Amos Simpson's wife, Jane, in case you missed the thread on the other page.

Before they married, in 1871, Jane was working for Abraham Macatto, founder of the West London Synagogue for British Jews. This particular synagogue was set up in 1842 to celebrate the unity between Sephardi & Ashkenazi Jews.
It is listed that many of the congregation came from Ukraine.

May have no relevance here at all, but working in that particular household would be the ideal place to find or be given an Eastern European shawl.
I am aware that Abraham Macatto was a British-born Jew but there are numerous newspaper articles about the people his family interacted with & the places they travelled.

Amanda

Very interesting Amanda any idea how much a shawl like this would cost in 1888?

[Trevor Marriott]

Thats pretty much it in British terminology.
Not enough is known about the activities of Person 'A' to make him a suspect, but he can't be wholly dismissed either.
A Person of Interest is, subject to further investigation.

Of course but he only becomes a suspect should that further investigation reveal further evidence.

Which pretty much encapsulates all the modern suspected persons that we apply the rather grand label 'suspect' to, they are really only Persons of Interest.

You are right again thats all they are and all they ever will be !

[John G]

Hi All,
Just thought I'd give you a quick update on some research I've done into Amos Simpson's wife, Jane, in case you missed the thread on the other page.

Before they married, in 1871, Jane was working for Abraham Macatto, founder of the West London Synagogue for British Jews. This particular synagogue was set up in 1842 to celebrate the unity between Sephardi & Ashkenazi Jews.
It is listed that many of the congregation came from Ukraine.

May have no relevance here at all, but working in that particular household would be the ideal place to find or be given an Eastern European shawl.
I am aware that Abraham Macatto was a British-born Jew but there are numerous newspaper articles about the people his family interacted with & the places they travelled.


Amanda

Hi Amanda,

Thanks for this, you're doing sterling work. As I noted yesterday in my somewhat cynical post- I must start being more objective!- the crucial issue is whether it is likely that PC Simpson could have arrived at the Mitre Square crime scene, in the immediate aftermath of Eddowes' body being discovered, in order to lay claim to the shawl.

Now if it can be established that he was on duty within the City boundary on the night of the murder, i.e. because of some temporary transfer to the City force, then I would accept this as a possibility. Thus, I think it significant that in August 1888 Major Henry Smith, the head of the City police, put nearly a third of his force in plain clothes (the fact that Simpson was a uniformed officer is therefore much less significant in this context). Their role was to wander about, sitting on door steps, hanging about in public houses and gossiping with the locals etc. In respect of movement, they clearly had far more flexibility than a beat officer, who might be reluctant to leave his beat, or even be prevented from doing so by protocol, if he heard another officer's whistle alarm in the distance.

In fact three of those officers- DCs Halse, Marriott and Outram- were in the area of Mitre Square at the time, searching the passages of houses, and heard about the murder at 1:55 am, i.e. within just 10 minutes of the body being discovered, and immediately headed to the incident.

Moreover, it does seem that communications between officers in 1888 were a bit more effective than my earlier post from yesterday might have implied (nobody challenged me, so I think I got away with it!). In fact even Inspector Collard, on duty at Bishopgate Police Station, received the news of the murder as early as 1:55, and presumably, therefore, most of the officers on duty at the station would have become aware of the incident at about the same time.

Nonetheless, I feel that if PC Simpson was still attached to the Islington Division, or even on temporary transfer to Whitechapel, I find the scenario far less plausible. I just don't see how a beat officer, attached to either Division, could end up in Mitre Square, an area where he had no jurisdiction anyway. In fact, even if he was patrolling on the boundary of the City, and heard whistle alarm calls, there surely had to be strict protocols in place that determined his response, especially if this involved crossing the boundary into another forces's jurisdiction (assuming that was even allowable). Otherwise, there would be complete chaos with officers blowing their whistles throughout the area in order to attract other officers, resulting in a kind of domino effect in which most of the Divisional strength could end up gravitating to what might be a be a relatively minor incident.

I would therefore suspect that only officers patrolling adjacent beats would initially respond and that a sergeant or Inspector would then have to decide whether to call in other officers, depending on the seriousness of the incident. This would, of course, would significantly delay his arrival into Mitre Square, even in the unlikely event that he was instructed to cross the boundary into another forces area, which seems highly unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,

John

[Amanda]

Shawl costing...

Very interesting Amanda any idea how much a shawl like this would cost in 1888?

Hi,
This is not really an area that I've done much research in, but I do know that a middle-class family would spend between £35 & £50 per year on the lady of the households clothing.
My resources don't shed much light on costs of individual items.

Do you think it's a more likely probability that Jane Simpson was given the shawl when she worked for the Macatto family, and then the story has been ' altered' to fit the scandals of 1888?

Amanda

[pinkmoon]

Hi,
This is not really an area that I've done much research in, but I do know that a middle-class family would spend between £35 & £50 per year on the lady of the households clothing.
My resources don't shed much light on costs of individual items.

Do you think it's a more likely probability that Jane Simpson was given the shawl when she worked for the Macatto family, and then the story has been ' altered' to fit the scandals of 1888?

Amanda

Hi Amanda,I think every family story has an element of truth behind it quite possible that Amos acquired it from an acquaintance in the police force but to try and put this shawl at the scene of any of the ripper murders is at best laughable at worst fraudulent.I think too many people want this to be genuine and it quite simply isn't we had all this with the diary 20 years ago and the fact we were never told where it had come from destroyed it from the beginning .A lot of people are going to join casebook because of shawlgate however a lot of people are going to get fed up and quit casebook because of it.

[Amanda]

More likely theory...

Hi Amanda,

Thanks for this, you're doing sterling work. As I noted yesterday in my somewhat cynical post- I must start being more objective!- the crucial issue is whether it is likely that PC Simpson could have arrived at the Mitre Square crime scene, in the immediate aftermath of Eddowes' body being discovered, in order to lay claim to the shawl.

Now if it can be established that he was on duty within the City boundary on the night of the murder, i.e. because of some temporary transfer to the City force, then I would accept this as a possibility. Thus, I think it significant that in August 1888 Major Henry Smith, the head of the City police, put nearly a third of his force in plain clothes (the fact that Simpson was a uniformed officer is therefore much less significant in this context). Their role was to wander about, sitting on door steps, hanging about in public houses and gossiping with the locals etc. In respect of movement, they clearly had far more flexibility than a beat officer, who might be reluctant to leave his beat, or even be prevented from doing so by protocol, if he heard another officer's whistle alarm in the distance.

In fact three of those officers- DCs Halse, Marriott and Outram- were in the area of Mitre Square at the time, searching the passages of houses, and heard about the murder at 1:55 am, i.e. within just 10 minutes of the body being discovered, and immediately headed to the incident.

Moreover, it does seem that communications between officers in 1888 were a bit more effective than my earlier post from yesterday might have implied (nobody challenged me, so I think I got away with it!). In fact even Inspector Collard, on duty at Bishopgate Police Station, received the news of the murder as early as 1:55, and presumably, therefore, most of the officers on duty at the station would have become aware of the incident at about the same time.

Nonetheless, I feel that if PC Simpson was still attached to the Islington Division, or even on temporary transfer to Whitechapel, I find the scenario far less plausible. I just don't see how a beat officer, attached to either Division, could end up in Mitre Square, an area where he had no jurisdiction anyway. In fact, even if he was patrolling on the boundary of the City, and heard whistle alarm calls, there surely had to be strict protocols in place that determined his response, especially if this involved crossing the boundary into another forces's jurisdiction (assuming that was even allowable). Otherwise, there would be complete chaos with officers blowing their whistles throughout the area in order to attract other officers, resulting in a kind of domino effect in which most of the Divisional strength could end up gravitating to what might be a be a relatively minor incident.

I would therefore suspect that only officers patrolling adjacent beats would initially respond and that a sergeant or Inspector would then have to decide whether to call in other officers, depending on the seriousness of the incident. This would, of course, would significantly delay his arrival into Mitre Square, even in the unlikely event that he was instructed to cross the boundary into another forces area, which seems highly unlikely anyway.

Best wishes,

John

Hi John,
Well, yes, all relevant & well worth the thought but what if:

1) Jane Simpson was given the shawl by the Macatto family when she worked for them ( Abraham Macatto was known to be a very benevolent man).

2) Family tales have become a little 'twisted' over the years & stories were added as the shawl was handed down so....

3) Amos Simpson is actually irrelevant if the above two are plausible.

4) DNA from an Ashkenazi Jew would be possible if the shawl didn't firstly belong to the Macatto family, but one of the congregation at synagogue ( ok so this is a bit far fetched) and then

5) Russell Edwards wishing that he'd looked at Jane Simpson's premarital employment record before taking it for granted that the Simpson family tales were true.

Food for thought anyway....
Amanda

[Jeff Leahy]

To Jeff

No, that's not true.

Swanson writes that there were no other such murders in London. Frances Coles was killed only a few days after Aaron Kosminski was permanently sectioned, at a time when he investigated that murder as one by 'Jack'.

He also has the suspect positively identified by a Jewish witness, when no such event happened involving Aaron Kosminski (though Swanson may have been entirely reliant on Anderson for the veracity of this tale).

The 'Seaside Home' is arguably a mis-recalling of the Seaman's Home involving Tom Sadler, who was 'çonfronted' by a Jewish witness, almost certainly Lawende.

Both Swanson and Anderson write about these events as if they happened in late 1888 and early 1889, when they did not.

Thats all wild speculation.. The Sadler ID doesn't fit at all..

Yours Jeff

PS Many thanks for Info Amanda

[lynn cates]

low class

Hello Christer. Thanks.

"So where's the list of psychotic killers who left no clues, who were silent and who got away with multiple murder?"

If they got away, how can they be listed?

"When I get that, I will give you a much longer list, a list of psychopathic killers with an occupation that gave them reason to be in the midst of a killing zone without being suspected, who killed multiple times and got away with it for the longest time."

And hopefully, they will be 19th C blokes.

"Statistically, you are cannon fodder, and you should know it."

Well, given that ALL suspects--including Cross--are less that 50%, we ALL are--at least, statistically speaking.

"And as long as we cannot conclusively name the killer, statistics is what we lean against."

No, not by a long shot.

"That should put an end to the discussion."

Given this is a Kosminski thread, perhaps it should not have started?

Now, about our low class . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Ukraine

Hello Amanda. Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

synopsis

Hello Jason.

"I think too many people want this to be genuine and it quite simply isn't. We had all this with the diary 20 years ago and the fact we were never told where it had come from destroyed it from the beginning. A lot of people are going to join Casebook because of shawlgate, however, a lot of people are going to get fed up and quit Casebook because of it."

Excellent synopsis.

Cheers.
LC