Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff.

"So the provenance is irrelevant as long as the science says it's Eddowes's blood"

But science says no such thing.

Cheers.
LC

One in eighteen or so possible in the area.. As far as I can see

[Robert]

"Now Fido was far too cute to say for sure that Aaron and 'Kosminski' were, 'beyond doubt' the same man."

He wasn't just being cautious. He categorically stated that they weren't the same man, and instead favoured "David Cohen" a 'hair-raisingly violent' lunatic who died in 1889, and whom Fido suspected was one and the same man as Nathan Kaminsky.

[Jeff Leahy]

"Now Fido was far too cute to say for sure that Aaron and 'Kosminski' were, 'beyond doubt' the same man."

He wasn't just being cautious. He categorically stated that they weren't the same man, and instead favoured "David Cohen" a 'hair-raisingly violent' lunatic who died in 1889, and whom Fido suspected was one and the same man as Nathan Kaminsky.

Perhaps he should have considered Aaron being placed in a private asylum March 1889, possibly in Surrey, and then being later released?

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

law

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

I have seen 1/7200. But surely this cannot be definitive.

As Dr. L pointed out, this would not stand up in a court of law.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

"Now Fido was far too cute to say for sure that Aaron and 'Kosminski' were, 'beyond doubt' the same man."

He wasn't just being cautious. He categorically stated that they weren't the same man, and instead favoured "David Cohen" a 'hair-raisingly violent' lunatic who died in 1889, and whom Fido suspected was one and the same man as Nathan Kaminsky.

Exactly, yet those Kosminski proponents who nailed their colours to the mast were left high and dry and have ever since continued to prop Aaron Kosminski up as a prime suspect, despite the fact that there is absolutely no evidence to class him as a prime suspect.

Those who run the crime museum at Scotland Yard have also been guilty of misleading the public by continually telling people Aaron Kosminski was a prime police suspect.

[mickreed]

Perhaps he should have considered Aaron being placed in a private asylum March 1889, possibly in Surrey, and then being later released?

Yours Jeff

Why should he have considered that?

[Chris]

"Now Fido was far too cute to say for sure that Aaron and 'Kosminski' were, 'beyond doubt' the same man.

Would that Edwards had his wisdom, and would that so many Ripper researchers had it too."

Goes for me too.

For balance - of course, the Swanson Marginalia say that the suspect "Kosminski" was admitted to Colney Hatch, and in the records of that asylum there is only one admission of a patient with that or a similar surname - a man who had lived in his brother's house in Whitechapel, just as the annotations say.

It was not a common surname in the UK at that time - only 5 adult male deaths registered in England and Wales before 1925. Despite a lot of searching, no one has found any record of another man named Kozminski (or variant) being admitted to any lunatic asylum in this country.

I think if there was ever an appropriate case for Occam's Razor, this is it. And frankly, I think the doubts that are raised about the identification have more to do with Ripperological politics than anything.

[Trevor Marriott]

For balance - of course, the Swanson Marginalia say that the suspect "Kosminski" was admitted to Colney Hatch, and in the records of that asylum there is only one admission of a patient with that or a similar surname - a man who had lived in his brother's house in Whitechapel, just as the annotations say.

It was not a common surname in the UK at that time - only 5 adult male deaths registered in England and Wales before 1925. Despite a lot of searching, no one has found any record of another man named Kozminski (or variant) being admitted to any lunatic asylum in this country.

I think if there was ever an appropriate case for Occam's Razor, this is it. And frankly, I think the doubts that are raised about the identification have more to do with Ripperological politics than anything.

But you are forgetting Kosminski incarcerated in 1889 died shortly after. When was Aaron incarcerated and when did he die ? Do you want to tell the people or shall I ?

[mickreed]

Yes, I mentioned this earlier and asked if anyone knew the family tree from Kate to Karen. We might be able to list exactly how many matrilineal descendants of Kate could be candidates that could have possibly contaminated the shawl since it became public in 1990.

I saw the FindMyPast programme last night in which Karen Miller learns of her connection with Eddowes, and which put Edwards on to her. The family tree is laid pretty completely (well you have to reconstruct it from the intermittent references, but it's all there) I was going to do today but have to go away unexpectedly.

In brief (and unchecked):

Kate Eddowes and Conway have a daughter Catherine Anne who marries Louis Phillips

Their daughter Ellen Phillips marries Joseph W Wells.

Their daughter, Catherine Annie Wells (Karen's grandmother) marries Albert J Foskett

Their daughter is, presumably, Karen's mother.

[Andy Conway]

Hello all

Very long time lurker here and now first time poster. I've been casually studying the Ripper case for a few years and had just put the finishing touches to my latest novel which stars William Bury as Jack when I heard the Kozminski DNA news. Talk about bad timing! (Anyway, my novel, which sees Bury, Eddowes and Arthur Conan Doyle cross paths in Birmingham two months before the Whitechapel murders, will be out in the next month, DNA or not).

Despite choosing Bury as the Ripper for my story, I don't really have a favourite, and could be convinced on Kosminski. But what I don't really get at all is the notion that the Ripper's semen could have been placed on a garment, any garment, in Mitre Square.

There just isn't time.

If we accept that Lawende sees Eddowes and the killer at the Church Passage entrance to Mitre Square at 1.34am, and that the killer would stop his work at.1:40am when PC Harvey went down Duke St and into Church Passage as far as Mitre Square, then the murderer carried out a phenomenal amount of injuries and organ removal in the space of six minutes. And now we have to factor in that he masturbated to climax as well?

I was listing every cut that was made today and will happily post them. It's a very long list, though. Especially when you add in all the other things he has to do in that time frame.

And even if he carries on regardless when PC Harvey approaches, he still has to be out of there by the time P.C. Watkins strolls back into Mitre Square 4 minutes later. So it's ten minutes tops, including walking her into the dark south-west corner at the start and making his escape at the end.

The injuries themselves are hard enough to buy in the available time frame (and I know there's a lot of dispute on various ripper boards about this), but a bit of 'solitary vice' as well?

[mickreed]

I think if there was ever an appropriate case for Occam's Razor, this is it. And frankly, I think the doubts that are raised about the identification have more to do with Ripperological politics than anything.

Yes, Chris, a reasonable, even compelling, argument, but still not quite the same as 'the police knew all along it was Aaron Kosminski'.

A strong likelihood does not make a 'fact'.

[Chris]

But you are forgetting Kosminski incarcerated in 1889 died shortly after.

Not at all. But this has all been discussed at great length many times before.

[mickreed]

Despite choosing Bury as the Ripper for my story, I don't really have a favourite, and could be convinced on Kosminski. But what I don't really get at all is the notion that the Ripper's semen could have been placed on a garment, any garment, in Mitre Square.

There just isn't time.

?

Hi Andy,

NOTHING wrong with writing a novel, especially when you admit that's what it is.

I don't buy the shawl thing based on what we know so far, but if Edwards is right (que ?) that it belonged to Kosminski then he could have done the masturbating bit long before - at home, in the park, when he killed Annie Chapman, or whenever.

[Chris]

Yes, Chris, a reasonable, even compelling, argument, but still not quite the same as 'the police knew all along it was Aaron Kosminski'.

A strong likelihood does not make a 'fact'.

Certainly, not at all the same as saying the police knew the Ripper was Kozminski.

But I really think we can say beyond reasonable doubt that the Kosminski mentioned by Macnaghten and Swanson was Aaron, in view of the rarity of the surname in England at that time, and the complete absence of any alternative candidate who was committed to an asylum.

[mickreed]

But I really think we can say beyond reasonable doubt that the Kosminski mentioned by Macnaghten and Swanson was Aaron, in view of the rarity of the surname in England at that time, and the complete absence of any alternative candidate who was committed to an asylum.

I think I buy that at the moment