Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Trevor Marriott]

Morning Henry,we are seriously asked to believe that a serial killer has been taking a tablecloth to the scene of his murders and then masturbating on it and then we are asked to believe he leaves his much loved tablecloth behind and a policeman who isn't even meant to be on duty in the area picks it up and gives it to his wife for a present who then gladly accept the gift which is covered in blood and semen never washes it and puts it away and forgets about it ....and like all good fairy stories they all lived happily every after.

Well the simple fact of the matter is clear to me and should clear to all others but that is wishful thinking in my part.

In all of these posts here and on JTR Forums, posters keep going over the same things going round in circles, running around like headless chickens it seems.

Negate the provenance of the shawl and the rest is academic, simply because the DNA is secondary and has not as has been written positively identified Catherine Eddowes or Aaron Kosminski as having direct contact with the material.

Perhaps Mr Edwards didn't realize that or maybe he did ? and went ahead and released a press release which I believe was misleading. He dangled the bait and all and sundry snapped it up and the feeding frenzy began, where will it end ?

[Jonathan H]

To Jeff

We are on the same page about the non-shawl.

We will, nonetheless, have to agree to disagree about how Aaron Kosminski became 'Kosminski'.

Though it is a reasonable theory I don't think it was a case of Chinese whispers (I think the tale of probably Lawende affirming to Kosminski, but refusing to testify, is a sincere memory lapse by Anderson, who passed it along to a puzzled Swanson.)

That 1907 version of [the un-named] Kosminski by Sims is the furthest from the real figure, except for two glaringly correct facts: that Aaron Kosminski was sectioned long after the Kelly atrocity and, by implication, was still alive when the article was written.

Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version and via Sims, as his proxy in 1907, knew that Aaron Kosminski was still alive whilst his ex-superior, Anderson, and his ex-junior, Swanson, from arguably 1895, seem to have thought the same suspect was definitely long deceased.

I am arguing the pair were misled.

Don't fuss about it, Jeff. Nobody here agrees with me, nobody. So why bother. Nearly everybody agrees with you that it was impossible for Macnaghten to have deliberately misled his colleagues about the particulars of the Polish suspect--case closed!

We might as well stick to dissecting the latest blunder by these DNAists.

Paul Begg, as you know, wrote a brilliant book arguing in favor of the Polish suspect--as advocated by Sir Robert Anderson--as the likeliest suspect to be 'Jack the Ripper'.

We can agree on that.

[pinkmoon]

Well the simple fact of the matter is clear to me and should clear to all others but that is wishful thinking in my part.

In all of these posts here and on JTR Forums, posters keep going over the same things going round in circles, running around like headless chickens it seems.

Negate the provenance of the shawl and the rest is academic, simply because the DNA is secondary and has not as has been written positively identified Catherine Eddowes or Aaron Kosminski as having direct contact with the material.

Perhaps Mr Edwards didn't realize that or maybe he did ? and went ahead and released a press release which I believe was misleading. He dangled the bait and all and sundry snapped it up and the feeding frenzy began, where will it end ?

Hi Trevor,a book should not have been published untill proof of this shawl/table cloth been at the murder scene.I am afraid we have another maybrick diary fiasco on our hands.

[Jeff Leahy]

To Jeff

We are on the same page about the non-shawl.

We will, nonetheless, have to agree to disagree about how Aaron Kosminski became 'Kosminski'.

Though it is a reasonable theory I don't think it was a case of Chinese whispers (I think the tale of probably Lawende affirming to Kosminski, but refusing to testify, is a sincere memory lapse by Anderson, who passed it along to a puzzled Swanson.)

That 1907 version of [the un-named] Kosminski by Sims is the furthest from the real figure, except for two glaringly correct facts: that Aaron Kosminski was sectioned long after the Kelly atrocity and, by implication, was still alive when the article was written.

Macnaghten in the 'Aberconway' version and via Sims, as his proxy in 1907, knew that Aaron Kosminski was still alive whilst his ex-superior, Anderson, and his ex-junior, Swanson, from arguably 1895, seem to have thought the same suspect was definitely long deceased.

I am arguing the pair were misled.

Don't fuss about it, Jeff. Nobody here agrees with me, nobody. So why bother. Nearly everybody agrees with you that it was impossible for Macnaghten to have deliberately misled his colleagues about the particulars of the Polish suspect--case closed!

We might as well stick to dissecting the latest blunder by these DNAists.

Paul Begg, as you know, wrote a brilliant book arguing in favor of the Polish suspect--as advocated by Sir Robert Anderson--as the likeliest suspect to be 'Jack the Ripper'.

We can agree on that.

I'd be most surprised if you can find two Ripperologists here able to agree on anything.. Tis the nature of the beast..

Personally I've always favoured a theory put to me by Rob House that the Crawford letter was sent to Anderson by Arons Sister Matillda.. That Anderson promised to help her and protect the family if they co-operated with the police..

my take is:
That Schwartz was the witness and it went wrong. The family panic'ed and had him locked up to get him away from police but Anderson having given his word to a lady hushed the whole thing up

But thats what I believe explains the different tales.. we all take our pick

Trust all is well State side

Yours Jeff

PS And I've always felt the Jack the Ripper murders are fairly 'A'typical for serial killers in general. The killings are far closer together than most and what we are looking at is more akin to a modern SPREE killer that was simply at large for a long period.. Yours Jeff

[Fisherman]

Thanks for posting that, Fish. So this expert comes up with an estimated population of 600 for his own haplogroup. Considerably less than the 400,000 figure that was mentioned earlier.

MrB

HER own haplogroup, actually, Mr Barnett.

But that´s just her group.

Fot the T1a1 group, the number is 7200.

... but the more interesting thing is that the T1a1 group that Louhelainen claims is very prevalent in the ashkenazi Jew descendance is not prevalent there at all, by the looks of things.

This is - obviously - not my area of expertise, but I would expect it to be Louhelainens. So why does he get this wrong (provided the writer on the site I linked to gets it right)?

Did he give the wrong haplogroup for Kosminski?

Or did he give the right haplogroup, and was Kosminski genetically of a different breed than ashkenazi jews normally are?

It´s slightly odd either way, and I would like to have it explained to me. Louhelainen is the doc, I am not, so there may well be a reasonable explanation.

And in the end, if the DNA is there, closely enough related to both Eddowes and Kosminski, and if the cloth is old enough to have been around in 1888, then THAT is the more interesting issue that needs to be addressed or accepted.

The best,
Fisherman

[Henry Flower]

Jeff,

I don't really understand why you seem incapable of reading what I have written. Others seem to have understood easily enough.

I do not have any friggin' information on the dating, save what I have read here - that it has previously been dated to 1902ish and thus cannot have any connection with Eddowes or JtR. I have no problem with that, and as I have stated now twice, UNLESS the book convincingly refutes that dating with alternative evidence, I won't be convinced by anything the book says.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.

[curious4]

Hello Jeff,

Except that there is no record of him ever being violent.

Best wishes

C4

[curious4]

Hello Lynn,

Although his condition does not seem to change after admittance to the workhouse and asylum. Uniformly loony, for want of a better word.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

Except that there is no record of him ever being violent.

Best wishes

C4

Schizophrenics are quite harmless. They can on rare occasions become violent during the phase known as 'Psychotic Episode' this is usually associated with a catalyst (Drugs or Alcohol) Once removed from the environment that may have caused any such episodes they return to being quite harmless.

Yours Jeff

[MrBarnett]

Hi Fish ,

Her/his, the point remains. A number of 400,000 was being bandied about and here we have someone who appears to be an expert giving much lower estimates. If T1a1 is indicative of Viking ancestry then one would imagine that after 1000 years it would have been more common in 1880s London than that indicating Russian Jewish ancestry, so we are probably talking about a much smaller number for whatever group Kosminski was.

And as for what the piece of material was, it looks to me like
the sort of thing carmen used to use to keep their knees warm.:-)



MrB

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

I don't really understand why you seem incapable of reading what I have written. Others seem to have understood easily enough.

I do not have any friggin' information on the dating, save what I have read here - that it has previously been dated to 1902ish and thus cannot have any connection with Eddowes or JtR. I have no problem with that, and as I have stated now twice, UNLESS the book convincingly refutes that dating with alternative evidence, I won't be convinced by anything the book says.

I don't know how to make it any clearer for you.

Thank you Henry

I thought you were saying that further tests have been done on the shawl to date it to an earlier time than Andy Aliffes original ID. I thought I'd missed something. If a credible re-dating for the material could be achieved that could possible alter our perspective. A simple miss understanding.

Yours Jeff

[Henry Flower]

If a credible re-dating for the material could be achieved that could possible alter our perspective.

Indeed. Let's just say that nothing I've read in the publicity so far gives me any optimism on that score. Or any other.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time I've been completely wrong about something.

[eddie1]

Just watched a BBC news report on this apparently they are seeking permission to get kosminski exhumed

[curious4]

Schizophrenics are quite harmless. They can on rare occasions become violent during the phase known as 'Psychotic Episode' this is usually associated with a catalyst (Drugs or Alcohol) Once removed from the environment that may have caused any such episodes they return to being quite harmless.

Yours Jeff

Not quite sure you're right about that Jeff - schizophrenics have been having psychotic episodes without the help of drugs (or even alchohol) for presumably thousands of years. Although if you happen to have a doctor's degree in psychiatry I will bow to your expert knowledge.!

Best wishes

C4

[Jeff Leahy]

Indeed. Let's just say that nothing I've read in the publicity so far gives me any optimism on that score. Or any other.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time I've been completely wrong about something.

Ah again that is the nature of ripperology. I've made more than the odd gaff in my time.. And lets face it stuff does change. New stuff turns up, tests are done.
I think the shawl is a red herring also..

If we could dig up anyone and test for DNA it should be Kelly. Perhaps she could finally be laid to rest

Yours Jeff