Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Henry Flower]

There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

(a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
(b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
(c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
(d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
(e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
(f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
(g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
(h) the descendants really are descendants
(i) no anagrams are involved
(j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
(k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
(l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Fisherman]

The paper mentioned about Dr Behars research into the mtDNA heritage of the Jewish people can be accessed via

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002062

The best,
Fisherman

[Henry Flower]

My guess is they started with semen

Didn't we all, Jonathan?

Except Jesus, of course.

[El White Chap]

Didn't we all, Jonathan?

Except Jesus, of course.

Nah, they just told Joseph that to keep him sweet.

[Jeff Leahy]

There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

(a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
(b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
(c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
(d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
(e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
(f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
(g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
(h) the descendants really are descendants
(i) no anagrams are involved
(j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
(k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
(l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

Sounds reasonable to me.

Hi Henry

The fabric was taken to the Victorian and Albert Museum where it was identified..to my knowledge..as an Edwardian Table Runner.

So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

drivel

Hello Jon.

"I think the fly in the ointment is the fact this textile cannot be placed at the murder scene, nor placed in the possession of either the Eddowes family nor the Kozminski family at any time.

That fact alone calls into the question the 'pioneering' procedure that turned up this DNA to begin with."

Precisely. And hence we need not wade through all the drivel.

Cheers.
LC

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Lynn,

Very true but just doesn't fit with the picture I have of him. Roaming the streets picking up pieces of bread from the streets and muttering to himself. Suppose it is possible that he had lucid moments, we don't really have a proper diagnosis, but I see him getting worse and worse. In other words not a smooth individual who could persuade a woman who was aware of the dangers to go with him to a dark corner somewhere.

Best wishes Gwyneth/C4

P.S. Shawly he was too disturbed to be the Ripper? Sorry, couldn't resist!

OK lets bury this once and for all. Aron Kosminski was 22 years of age in 1888. This is fairly typical for the age of the on set of schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia in its early stages hits the sufferer in waves or psychotic attacks typically lasting approx 18 weeks. Then periods of recovery (Can vary) and further attacks if untreated that progressively get worse.

We know from the 'Walking the Dog' court report that Aaron Kosminski had periods of apparent lucidity. So it seems likely that his condition worsened considerably between 1888 and 1892.

However it seems probable that he also would have had periods of recovery and lucidity getting worse. At which point the family clearly felt they could no longer cope…

Actually the period known as the Autumn of Terror would fit fairly well the approx period of an early on set of a 'psychotic Episode' and might explain why the attacks suddenly stopped and started again

Yours Jeff

[GUT]

There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

(a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
(b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
(c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
(d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
(e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
(f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
(g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
(h) the descendants really are descendants
(i) no anagrams are involved
(j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
(k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
(l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

Sounds reasonable to me.

Hi Henry

The fabric was taken to the Victorian and Albert Museum where it was identified..to my knowledge..as an Edwardian Table Runner.

So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.

Yours Jeff

G'day Jeff

I'm pretty sure henry's saying that the book needs to convince him that a-k are true.

IE prove that the fabric does not post-date the murders

[lynn cates]

guess

Hello Jonathan. My guess is that someone read the article about the Swanson family and their "ancestor" solving the crime.

Cheers.
LC

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

And now my countrymen are asking mr. Louhelainen to use the same method to find out the murderer of Kyllikki Saari (a teenage girl murdered in 1953 and one of our classic murder mysteries...) .

All the best
jukka

[Henry Flower]

Thank you GUT, you're right.

Jeff:

So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.

Answer: in your imagination.

[lynn cates]

episodes

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Well, IF he suffered from schizophrenia, then it likely came in waves or episodes. You might compare him to my man, Jacob, who had alternating lucid periods as well as badly deranged and delusional ones.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Christer. Thanks for the information.

Cheers.
LC

[j.r-ahde]

Hello lynn!

I have to say again;

The eyewitnesses descriptions of the Ripper vary in the following way (if I remember correctely! ):

1) with a beard, 2) without a beard, 3) with a moustache, 4) with a moustache and a beard under his chin.

Sounds more like planning than a fit of rage, doesn't it?

All the best
jukka

[lynn cates]

crucial

Hello Henry. Yes, a-h are crucial. But I think that these are PRECISELY what cannot be answered.

Cheers.
LC