Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Chris]

Definitely the type they state:

"He had established a 100 percent match of the genome of our suspect's DNA to haplogroup T1a1... The rippers haplogroup type is very typical in people of russian Jewish ethnicity (with 'Russian' embracing Polish as well, as Jari later explained)."

"A major study in the Annals of Human Genetics into mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians concluded that both countires have a similar DNA pattern, with all mtDNA haplogroups being represented equally in both nations (with haplogroup T1 very slightlymore represented among the Poles). So when Jari came up with Russian, it embraces Polish too, hence Jaristext stating Russian ethnicity"

These are the two quotes from the book concerning haplogroups I believe, theres more about it during this chapter, but these two are probably most relevant. I'm not sure about quoting books at length, but I hope this is ok to post. These are the things that interest me the most about the book because I'm not a scientist so any discussion is opening my eyes wider!

After that it says they checked a database at the National Center for Biotechnology Information and found a "perfect hit" for the sequence obtained from the shawl. "The hit was for mitochondrial haplotype T1a1; it matched our sequence perfectly, and the ethnicity of the person it belonged to was recorded as ‘Russian.’"

However, what is puzzling is that immediately before those results are presented (and after the details of the mitochondrial match with the descendant of Matilda) there is a passage saying that they also decided to test for ethnic and geographical background, and there is a direct quotation from Jari Louhelainen saying "I am looking into whether we have sufficiently good genomic DNA to be able to get the same precise information about our suspect, but we have to remember that it is very old DNA.’" [my emphasis] Elsewhere in the book, genomic DNA appears to mean nuclear DNA, not mitochondrial. But to make matters more confusing, the "same precise information" refers to Jari's own ethnicity, which was based on mitochondrial DNA.

[Poch]

After that it says they checked a database at the National Center for Biotechnology Information and found a "perfect hit" for the sequence obtained from the shawl. "The hit was for mitochondrial haplotype T1a1; it matched our sequence perfectly, and the ethnicity of the person it belonged to was recorded as ‘Russian.’"

However, what is puzzling is that immediately before those results are presented (and after the details of the mitochondrial match with the descendant of Matilda) there is a passage saying that they also decided to test for ethnic and geographical background, and there is a direct quotation from Jari Louhelainen saying "I am looking into whether we have sufficiently good genomic DNA to be able to get the same precise information about our suspect, but we have to remember that it is very old DNA.’" [my emphasis] Elsewhere in the book, genomic DNA appears to mean nuclear DNA, not mitochondrial. But to make matters more confusing, the "same precise information" refers to Jari's own ethnicity, which was based on mitochondrial DNA.

Yeh, I found this confusing. Mostly becuase I don't really know anything about genetic science, but when he mentions "good quality DNA" allowing him to profile himself, but not so much the ripper, you have to wonder how solid any of these results are, since we've not really any idea about the "quality" of the DNA they used and how much of a difference that makes to determining different factors like haplogroups in comparison to hair colour. They only really mention it in passages which describe how they got it, which are honestly, way over my head (the amplification stuff, which seems important in understanding the quality, for a start!).

[Robert]

It sounds as though this should have been a co-written book, with the scientist handling the technical stuff.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Phil. Excellent! Your post sums up the situation and why one is entitled to dismiss this ruse OUT OF HAND.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Thank you.

best wishes

Phil

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning Jeff,

... if you look at the pictures of Aaron Sister and cousin ...

If you look at the pictures -

What pictures can I look at, Jeff?

Roy

[Chris]

Yeh, I found this confusing. Mostly becuase I don't really know anything about genetic science, but when he mentions "good quality DNA" allowing him to profile himself, but not so much the ripper, you have to wonder how solid any of these results are, since we've not really any idea about the "quality" of the DNA they used and how much of a difference that makes to determining different factors like haplogroups in comparison to hair colour. They only really mention it in passages which describe how they got it, which are honestly, way over my head (the amplification stuff, which seems important in understanding the quality, for a start!).

Well, I can believe measuring the quality of the sequences is a very technical subject, but what I'm struggling to understand is whether the T1a1 haplotype refers to mtDNA or Y-chromosome DNA.

[Robert]

"Out of hand" on a thread about Kosminski?

[Phil Carter]

He isnt listed amongst my copies of the 1888 Police Orders

Monty

Hello Monty,

So now we have...

1 policeman that isn't listed as being there but has claimed to be there...
1 same policeman said, by himself to be on special duties but isn't listed as such...
1 same policeman that if NOT on special duties can only have been on duty as a policeman in another Police Force division 35 mins walk from the mutrder spot... which rather rules out hearing a whistle anyway...
1 special duty policeman, same attached to the Met Police "who just happens" to be in City Police territory at the right time on the right day...
1 policeman, same, who if not on special duties has crossed over into the City Force area, attended the murder scene, not filed a report, not mention in said report either, not noted by Inspector Collard at app. 2.02am upon his arrival and acting totally independant of other plain clothes policemen attached to the City Force.
1 policeman, above, breaking every known rule of what to do with what at a murder scene and nobody says hello to him even.

1. piece of 8ft x 2ft cloth material that isn't listed as being there, wasn't drawn on a sketch in situ as being there but is claimed by the policeman who said he was there but isn't listed as being there as being there...

1 story that has no provenance from the word go that we should all believe because of a story told verbally down the years without any speck (excuse the deliberate ref) of evidence...

1 DNA test that was inconclusive in 2010 and 1 mtDNA that 1 in 400,000 people could be the person responsible for supplying the mtDNA, all done without, as I understand it, and I could be wrong, no control test, no backup tests on each different test and no list of the providers of the DNA either.


Conclusion?

'"1 load of complete and utter codswallop"

regards

Phil

[Prosector]

Is there anybody who has the book and can confirm that the DNA given as Kosminski-type was of the haplotype T1a1? Or is that information only in the Daily News?

All the best,
Fisherman

I can confirm it because I have the book
Prosector

[Prosector]

Well, I can believe measuring the quality of the sequences is a very technical subject, but what I'm struggling to understand is whether the T1a1 haplotype refers to mtDNA or Y-chromosome DNA.

It refers to mtDNA
Prosector

[Chris]

It refers to mtDNA
Prosector

Yes. I quoted the part of the book which refers to T1a1 as a "mitochondrial haplotype". Obviously I can see it says that.

But the immediately preceding statement that I also quoted, about genomic DNA, suggests the opposite. That's what I am struggling to understand.

[Fisherman]

Well, I can believe measuring the quality of the sequences is a very technical subject, but what I'm struggling to understand is whether the T1a1 haplotype refers to mtDNA or Y-chromosome DNA.

Louhiainen and Edwards extracted mtDNA, and checked against female descendants along the Eddowes and Kosminski bloodlines.

The T maternal bloodline holds less that five per cent ashkenazis. T1a1 is one of many subclades to the T group.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I can confirm it because I have the book
Prosector

Thanks, Prosector!

the best,
Fisherman

[Poch]

Hello Monty,

So now we have...

1 policeman that isn't listed as being there but has claimed to be there...
1 same policeman said, by himself to be on special duties but isn't listed as such...
1 same policeman that if NOT on special duties can only have been on duty as a policeman in another Police Force division 35 mins walk from the mutrder spot... which rather rules out hearing a whistle anyway...
1 special duty policeman, same attached to the Met Police "who just happens" to be in City Police territory at the right time on the right day...
1 policeman, same, who if not on special duties has crossed over into the City Force area, attended the murder scene, not filed a report, not mention in said report either, not noted by Inspector Collard at app. 2.02am upon his arrival and acting totally independant of other plain clothes policemen attached to the City Force.
1 policeman, above, breaking every known rule of what to do with what at a murder scene and nobody says hello to him even.

1. piece of 8ft x 2ft cloth material that isn't listed as being there, wasn't drawn on a sketch in situ as being there but is claimed by the policeman who said he was there but isn't listed as being there as being there...

1 story that has no provenance from the word go that we should all believe because of a story told verbally down the years without any speck (excuse the deliberate ref) of evidence...

1 DNA test that was inconclusive in 2010 and 1 mtDNA that 1 in 400,000 people could be the person responsible for supplying the mtDNA, all done without, as I understand it, and I could be wrong, no control test, no backup tests on each different test and no list of the providers of the DNA either.


Conclusion?

'"1 load of complete and utter codswallop"

regards

Phil

Which source are we using to determine he wasn't listed as being on special duty? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested. I heard it mentioned last night too and was quite suprised one existed since theres no mention in the book, though obviously we know why he didn't put it if the source exists and he isn't on there lol.

Also, if you buy the books story, the cloth is listed as being there, as I wrote a page or so ago. Not defending the author here or anything, just want to point that out.

[Chris]

Louhiainen and Edwards extracted mtDNA, and checked against female descendants along the Eddowes and Kosminski bloodlines.

Yes. I know that. I've just posted two quotations from the book, in response to your question.

I've also explained (twice) what is puzzling me.