Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Patrick S]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Ja...ail/story.html

Even the Daddy of DNA profiling has his doubts.

Monty

“An interesting but remarkable claim that needs to be subjected to peer review, with detailed analysis of the provenance of the shawl and the nature of the claimed DNA match with the perpetrator's descendants and its power of discrimination; no actual evidence has yet been provided.”

This about sums it up. I don't expect that this thing will stand up to peer review. I mean, it's not an accident that the book comes out before any attempt at independent analysis. Cash in, THEN deal with the scruitiny.

I think that, should the "shawl" prove genuine it could take the study/discussion of the case(s) in some new and interesting directions. If it proves a fraud, well, it's another strange footnote to the history of the 'Jack the Ripper'.

[pinkmoon]

I have an idea how to resolve all this it came to me this morning just call me genius.

[Jeff Leahy]

I have no idea... I am not a vintage clothing expert. But I do not think anyone else on the boards is either... although everyone seems to have accepted this thing is a table runner, without much actual proof apart from its size, which, from what little I have found out, was not unusual for shawls in the early to mid 1800s.

RH

Hi Rob

Thats probably because it appears to have been fairly perceived wisdom on the shawl,Certainly that was the story I was given by Andy Aliffe. And Adam Wood has added more detail about that stories origin.

If the Material has been re-examined and tested and proved to be older, then thats new information. Hopefully more detail ail come to light about those claims. I guess if its correct its time to start rethinking what it actually is..

Could be any number of things if proved genuine..

I rather like the idea that if Aaron carried it (I think it unlikely Eddows would have done so) that possible it was used as a murder weapon.

But like you I still think the whole shawl story unlikely

Yours Jeff

[Outlaw]

Hi, long time Lurker, first post. I was wondering if anyone here had a link to when the 'Shawl' was examined at the V & A, and were the findings seen as proof that the shawl alleged to have been at the Eddowe's murder scene was 'Edwardian' and not Victorian as has been alleged by Russell Edwards?

[Fisherman]

I am currently reading the book and when Dr Jari announced the mtDNA haplotype it was T1a1. He said that it was 'Russian.' This initially gave Russell Edwards pause for thought but he gets around it by stating that in 1888 Russian and Polish were synonymous. The problem is that the T1a1 hapolotype is not found in Jews.
Prosector

Bravo, Prosector! That is exactly what I am currently saying on JTR. The maternal DNA group T1a1 is NOT one where Russian Jews are prevalent. The overgroup T holds less than 5 per cent, whereas the overgroups K, HV, H and J hold 65-70 per cent. THAT is where the Ashkenazis are placed in matrilinear DNA bloodlines.

And I am also saying that the T1a1 bloodline is very intimately connected with the ashkenazi heritage - but along that MALE bloodlines! The subclades T1a1a1 and T1a2a2 are very, very typical for Ashkenazi jews.

Question: Was Louhelainens assertion knit to a mistake on his behalf? Did he think in male DNA terms when saying that the T1a1 group is typically Russian?

[pinkmoon]

Hello Michael.

"I have some 19th century shoes that come from MJK's apartment."

Like to buy this from you. Take payment in Scotch farthings? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

I will trade you my book of Shakespeare's limericks and also Chuck in my autographed Elvis cd as well.

[Prosector]

Actually if you look at the pictures of Aaron Sister and cousin they don't look (And I don't wish to offend anyone here) typically jewish or what might be termed orthodox jewish but actually very polish.. quite fair

Yours Jeff

But Kosminski was said to be a Polish Jew and the T1a1 haplotype is rare in Poland anyway even amongst non-Jews. I would like to see the exact family tree of the present day anonymous donor to see exactly what the relationship is and how definite. Maybe it's in the book but I haven't got there yet. In the 19th century intermarriage between Eastern European Jews and Gentiles was, I believe, quite rare.

My main doubt is regarding the survivability of either identifiable cells or free mtDNA on a 126 year old shawl/table runner. Sir Alec Jefferys, the father of forensic DNA analysis has said:
“An interesting but remarkable claim that needs to be subjected to peer review, with detailed analysis of the provenance of the shawl and the nature of the claimed DNA match with the perpetrator's descendants and its power of discrimination; no actual evidence has yet been provided.”
I second that. The words 'power of discrimination' are the key ones.
Prosector

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi, long time Lurker, first post. I was wondering if anyone here had a link to when the 'Shawl' was examined at the V & A, and were the findings seen as proof that the shawl alleged to have been at the Eddowe's murder scene was 'Edwardian' and not Victorian as has been alleged by Russell Edwards?

Adam wood is your man..

He did post about this yesterday but good luck trawling back through all the posts.. Actually I can't even remember which forum it was on…dooh

Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

But Kosminski was said to be a Polish Jew and the T1a1 haplotype is rare in Poland anyway even amongst non-Jews. I would like to see the exact family tree of the present day anonymous donor to see exactly what the relationship is and how definite. Maybe it's in the book but I haven't got there yet. In the 19th century intermarriage between Eastern European Jews and Gentiles was, I believe, quite rare.
Prosector

I'm not so certain about that but its not my area. I believe the pictures are also printed in Robs book. This is probably a question for Rob House

Yours Jeff

[Fisherman]

Is there anybody who has the book and can confirm that the DNA given as Kosminski-type was of the haplotype T1a1? Or is that information only in the Daily News?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Leahy:

Actually if you look at the pictures of Aaron Sister and cousin they don't look (And I don't wish to offend anyone here) typically jewish or what might be termed orthodox jewish but actually very polish.. quite fair


And the guy who left his semen on the shawl was darkhaired, according to Louhelainen. A straw in the wind, perhaps?

The best,
Fisherman

[pinkmoon]

I can put this to bed too, though I expect nothing to come of it. The book states that the shawl was mis-reported as a skirt by the press, which described the shawl at the crime scene, but said it was a skirt. The descriptions of the skirts by the police do not match what the press reported, as all her skirts are plain.

It's the authors theory that the shawl was mis-identified as a skirt by the press and by the time the police wrote up the articles of clothing for the report, Amos has already taken off with the shawl, hence it not appearing in police records.

Whether or not that is believable is another story.

Hi poch,welcome to the boards you've obviously got a bit more of an open mind been a newcomer do you think Mr Edwards will ever be able to put the shawl at the murder scene because if he can't he's got nothing.

[Poch]

Is there anybody who has the book and can confirm that the DNA given as Kosminki-type was of the haplotype T1a1? Or is that information only in the Daily News?

All the best,
Fisherman

Definitely the type they state:

"He had established a 100 percent match of the genome of our suspect's DNA to haplogroup T1a1... The rippers haplogroup type is very typical in people of russian Jewish ethnicity (with 'Russian' embracing Polish as well, as Jari later explained)."

"A major study in the Annals of Human Genetics into mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians concluded that both countires have a similar DNA pattern, with all mtDNA haplogroups being represented equally in both nations (with haplogroup T1 very slightlymore represented among the Poles). So when Jari came up with Russian, it embraces Polish too, hence Jaristext stating Russian ethnicity"

These are the two quotes from the book concerning haplogroups I believe, theres more about it during this chapter, but these two are probably most relevant. I'm not sure about quoting books at length, but I hope this is ok to post. These are the things that interest me the most about the book because I'm not a scientist so any discussion is opening my eyes wider!

[Fisherman]

Definitely the type they state:

"He had established a 100 percent match of the genome of our suspect's DNA to haplogroup T1a1... The rippers haplogroup type is very typical in people of russian Jewish ethnicity (with 'Russian' embracing Polish as well, as Jari later explained)."

"A major study in the Annals of Human Genetics into mitochondrial DNA variability in Poles and Russians concluded that both countires have a similar DNA pattern, with all mtDNA haplogroups being represented equally in both nations (with haplogroup T1 very slightlymore represented among the Poles). So when Jari came up with Russian, it embraces Polish too, hence Jaristext stating Russian ethnicity"

These are the two quotes from the book concerning haplogroups I believe, theres more about it during this chapter, but these two are probably most relevant. I'm not sure about quoting books at length, but I hope this is ok to post. These are the things that interest me the most about the book because I'm not a scientist so any discussion is opening my eyes wider!

Many thanks, Poch!

The best,
Fisherman

[Poch]

Hi poch,welcome to the boards you've obviously got a bit more of an open mind been a newcomer do you think Mr Edwards will ever be able to put the shawl at the murder scene because if he can't he's got nothing.

He does place it at the scene and on the surface you can say his theory makes some kind of sense, I mean how close could a press reporter get to a crime scene, how ripped up was the clothing, how much light was available. These questions make me think it's certainly possible that a shawl draped by her legs could have been confused as a skirt by the press. I can even go along with the concept that if it had been taken home by Amos, then that would explain why its in the press but not the report.

A little less believable is that an officer took it home with him, but what if, like the author of the book states, you consider that forensic evidence was not a thing at the time and the clothing was probably taken to a station, written up and then binned. Whats a piece of fabric? Morally that poses questions, but then consider the times, morals were not what they are today, you can see that just by looking at Whitechapel itself, the concept of the bunkhouses alone.

But.. can I believe all this? I'm not sure, theres one too many mental leaps in there for me and honestly, that's why I enjoy the mystery of the ripper case but I'm not really fussed about anyone finding the murderer as there is nearly always assumption and mental leaps, even in the best researched books.