Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Jeff Leahy]

Not quite sure you're right about that Jeff - schizophrenics have been having psychotic episodes without the help of drugs (or even alchohol) for presumably thousands of years. Although if you happen to have a doctor's degree in psychiatry I will bow to your expert knowledge.!

Best wishes

C4

Never trust a doctor

I am quite close to someone who works regularly with Schizophrenics. I also interviewed Dr Lars Davidson he said I quote "Schizophrenics are no more likely than other members of society to commit violent crimes" but then other people in society do commit violent crimes..

An interesting report I discovered from Finland suggests crime rates amongst Schizophrenics are slightly higher than other sections of society. But I think that should be caveated with the fact that Schizophrenics are more prone to addiction and thus more likely to be affected by alcohol.

I'd argue most known schizophrenic serial killers such as Sutcliffe are quite harmless once locked up. I don't think I'd want to trust Brady however?

But I don't see why we would expect Aaron to be violent once removed from the environment that caused the attacks if indeed he were the ripper.

Yours Jeff

[Prosector]

I'm I the only person who is actually impressed that they have managed to extract mtDNA from 120+ year old sperm cells?

There is, as far as I am aware, absolutely no proof that the mtDNA extracted came from either sperm or blood cells nor of how old it was. It was just extracted from the cloth. The presence of stains proves absolutely nothing - food, wine, fruit juice etc, all cause stains. All tests for blood previously undertaken on this cloth were negative as far as I know.
Prosector

[Prosector]

Ah again that is the nature of ripperology. I've made more than the odd gaff in my time.. And lets face it stuff does change. New stuff turns up, tests are done.
I think the shawl is a red herring also..

If we could dig up anyone and test for DNA it should be Kelly. Perhaps she could finally be laid to rest

Yours Jeff

I did apply earlier this year to the Ministry of Justice for permission to exhume Kelly. Unfortunately she was buried in a public grave (and the location of that is not known with any accuracy) and so it would have been an impossible task to identify her remains from the several hundred others that would have to be shifted in the process. And the permissions of the living relatives of all of those people, if they could be traced, would have to be obtained as well.
Prosector

[curious4]

Hello Jeff,

I once worked, many years ago, in a private asylum, where the patients received the best care available at the time. Two of them (I don't want to make a diagnosis here) were almost certainly schizophrenic. Both were known to be violent, one had commited murder. Neither of them could be classed as normal, even while fairly passive and one attempted to murder a ward maid. I believe that if Kosminski had a propensity for violence, it would have shown up during the time he was incarcerated.

Best wishes,

C4

[Garry Wroe]

I'd add to your list the account given by Saga.

Wow. I've heard of their cruises, but Ripperology for the over-fifties ... Where do I sign up?

[pinkmoon]

Hello Jeff,

I once worked, many years ago, in a private asylum, where the patients received the best care available at the time. Two of them (I don't want to make a diagnosis here) were almost certainly schizophrenic. Both were known to be violent, one had commited murder. Neither of them could be classed as normal, even while fairly passive and one attempted to murder a ward maid. I believe that if Kosminski had a propensity for violence, it would have shown up during the time he was incarcerated.

Best wishes,

C4

A friend of mine had an older brother who was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic he was a very nice charming person for long periods of time I mean a delight to be round but when he was bad he was BAD he smashed a brick in to my friends face on one occasion for no apparent reason he then developed a habit of carrying a cut throat razor shortly after this he committed suicide.The point I'm trying to make he could function normally for long periods of time and be totally harmless but for those short periods of time he was frightening.

[Harry D]

Richard Chase was a schizo, too. He was completely off the deep end, but even so his killing spree spanned a month before he was finally caught.

[lynn cates]

Harris

Hello Jason.

"a book should not have been published until proof of this shawl/table cloth been at the murder scene.I am afraid we have another Maybrick diary fiasco on our hands."

But one BIG difference--no Melvin Harris about.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

possibility

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

I guess I could play devil's advocate and say that his confinement did that to him?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

threat

Hello Jeff. They can also become violent if they feel threatened.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sweaty business

Hello Eddie.

"Just watched a BBC news report on this. Apparently they are seeking permission to get Kosminski exhumed."

Splendid. Someone should buy a lot of handkerchiefs. Need something to wipe the perspiration.

Cheers.
LC

[Henry Flower]

Jeff:

schizophrenic serial killers such as Sutcliffe

Hmmm... are you quite sure he wasn't faking it all along? I thought there was considerable doubt about that diagnosis.

His entire pitch was that he was schizophrenic, on a mission from God to kill prostitutes. He claimed to find the blood distressing, and to gain no pleasure from the acts, but was merely following divine instructions.

Which was clearly bs. Several victims were clearly not prostitutes. He had manufactured bespoke masturbation pants, had sex with at least one woman while she was dying, and penetrated others vaginally with a screwdriver, (something that Mr Wescott might find interesting - I mean in light of his findings, not personally). Sutcliffe fooled the doctors with religious mumbo jumbo, most of which he had picked up from studying his wife's illness. He even bragged about going to a loony bin rather than a prison.

[mickreed]

And there's always Frederick Deeming

I expect this is old news but - it's new to me.

I've just seen a programme called Prime Suspect: Jack the Ripper which can be seen here:

http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/shows/pr.../watch-online/

But it's only available in the UK I think, unless you use a VPN which I had to do.

Anyway, there's a quite lengthy section on the shawl and the DNA analysis by Dr Jari Louhelainen. According to the programme, it was the programme presenter who persuaded Russell Edwards to get the shawl analysed in an attempt to find Deeming's DNA. The quest was inconclusive allegedly because the DNA was contaminated.

It figures that contamination would probably be a problem. I wonder why it's not for the Kosminski DNA allegedly found.

Anyone else seen this?

[Patrick S]

Morning Henry,we are seriously asked to believe that a serial killer has been taking a tablecloth to the scene of his murders and then masturbating on it and then we are asked to believe he leaves his much loved tablecloth behind and a policeman who isn't even meant to be on duty in the area picks it up and gives it to his wife for a present who then gladly accept the gift which is covered in blood and semen never washes it and puts it away and forgets about it ....and like all good fairy stories they all lived happily every after.

Well. I'd say that if: the testing of said 'tablecloth' is peer-reviewed and found to be have been performed appropriately; the procedures used to extrat the DNA are shown to be legitimate and the results can be independently verified, and demonstrate that the the fabric contains DNA from both Eddowes and Kosminski; it can be established that the specimen was not contaminated with DNA from Eddowes' and/or Kosminski's living relatives.....then yeah. I think we'd have to seriously believe something along those lines.

There are some issues here. But, science can - eventually - settle the debate to some level of reasonable level of certainty. The story is everywhere now and the fabric, the story, the science, will all be put under intense scruitiny. I'll follow the story and wait to give opinions until I feel comfortable that there's enough credible information available to do so. All I know now is this:

1. The history and story behind the fabric is somewhat suspect;
2. The science appears legitimate and the scientist does not appear to be some fringe character or quack;
3. The media has over-stated, misconstrued, and gotten wrong some aspects of the story (shocking, I know), so we have to weed through all that;
4. The shawl's owner is not the most credible fellow;
5. If this thing is legitimized to some reasonable degree through peer-review, etc......there will still be a high percentage of people who will not buy it, the debates will continue unabated, Patsy Cornwell will still pen her Sickert books, Fish and Eddie will still push Crossmere, and new theories about how Kosminski was a patsy, had an accomplice, or was framed by the police will crop up;
6. Either way, this is just the beginning.

[pinkmoon]

Hello Eddie.

"Just watched a BBC news report on this. Apparently they are seeking permission to get Kosminski exhumed."

Splendid. Someone should buy a lot of handkerchiefs. Need something to wipe the perspiration.

Cheers.
LC

Please tell me you are joking to start digging dead bodies up on the strength of this story is wrong wrong wrong prove the shawl is genuine and then only then start digging up the dead.