Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

    Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

    I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

    (a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
    (b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
    (c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
    (d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
    (e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
    (f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
    (g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
    (h) the descendants really are descendants
    (i) no anagrams are involved
    (j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
    (k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
    (l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

    Sounds reasonable to me.

    Comment


    • The paper mentioned about Dr Behars research into the mtDNA heritage of the Jewish people can be accessed via
      The history of the Jewish Diaspora dates back to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests in the Levant, followed by complex demographic and migratory trajectories over the ensuing millennia which pose a serious challenge to unraveling population genetic patterns. Here we ask whether phylogenetic analysis, based on highly resolved mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) phylogenies can discern among maternal ancestries of the Diaspora. Accordingly, 1,142 samples from 14 different non-Ashkenazi Jewish communities were analyzed. A list of complete mtDNA sequences was established for all variants present at high frequency in the communities studied, along with high-resolution genotyping of all samples. Unlike the previously reported pattern observed among Ashkenazi Jews, the numerically major portion of the non-Ashkenazi Jews, currently estimated at 5 million people and comprised of the Moroccan, Iraqi, Iranian and Iberian Exile Jewish communities showed no evidence for a narrow founder effect, which did however characterize the smaller and more remote Belmonte, Indian and the two Caucasus communities. The Indian and Ethiopian Jewish sample sets suggested local female introgression, while mtDNAs in all other communities studied belong to a well-characterized West Eurasian pool of maternal lineages. Absence of sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages among the North African Jewish communities suggests negligible or low level of admixture with females of the host populations among whom the African haplogroup (Hg) L0-L3 sub-clades variants are common. In contrast, the North African and Iberian Exile Jewish communities show influence of putative Iberian admixture as documented by mtDNA Hg HV0 variants. These findings highlight striking differences in the demographic history of the widespread Jewish Diaspora.


      The best,
      Fisherman

      Comment


      • My guess is they started with semen
        Didn't we all, Jonathan?

        Except Jesus, of course.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
          Didn't we all, Jonathan?

          Except Jesus, of course.
          Nah, they just told Joseph that to keep him sweet.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
            There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

            Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

            I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

            (a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
            (b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
            (c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
            (d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
            (e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
            (f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
            (g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
            (h) the descendants really are descendants
            (i) no anagrams are involved
            (j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
            (k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
            (l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

            Sounds reasonable to me.
            Hi Henry

            The fabric was taken to the Victorian and Albert Museum where it was identified..to my knowledge..as an Edwardian Table Runner.

            So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.

            Yours Jeff

            Comment


            • drivel

              Hello Jon.

              "I think the fly in the ointment is the fact this textile cannot be placed at the murder scene, nor placed in the possession of either the Eddowes family nor the Kozminski family at any time.

              That fact alone calls into the question the 'pioneering' procedure that turned up this DNA to begin with."

              Precisely. And hence we need not wade through all the drivel.

              Cheers.
              LC

              Comment


              • Originally posted by curious4 View Post
                Hello Lynn,

                Very true but just doesn't fit with the picture I have of him. Roaming the streets picking up pieces of bread from the streets and muttering to himself. Suppose it is possible that he had lucid moments, we don't really have a proper diagnosis, but I see him getting worse and worse. In other words not a smooth individual who could persuade a woman who was aware of the dangers to go with him to a dark corner somewhere.

                Best wishes Gwyneth/C4

                P.S. Shawly he was too disturbed to be the Ripper? Sorry, couldn't resist!
                OK lets bury this once and for all. Aron Kosminski was 22 years of age in 1888. This is fairly typical for the age of the on set of schizophrenia.

                Schizophrenia in its early stages hits the sufferer in waves or psychotic attacks typically lasting approx 18 weeks. Then periods of recovery (Can vary) and further attacks if untreated that progressively get worse.

                We know from the 'Walking the Dog' court report that Aaron Kosminski had periods of apparent lucidity. So it seems likely that his condition worsened considerably between 1888 and 1892.

                However it seems probable that he also would have had periods of recovery and lucidity getting worse. At which point the family clearly felt they could no longer cope…

                Actually the period known as the Autumn of Terror would fit fairly well the approx period of an early on set of a 'psychotic Episode' and might explain why the attacks suddenly stopped and started again

                Yours Jeff

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Henry Flower View Post
                  There we are - classic Casebook: 66 pages in and the ever-reliable Robhouse thankfully posts some actual evidence (an image of the damn thing) that puts to rest page after page of fruitless debate about the Ripper/Eddowes/Simpson being burdened with a supposedly unwieldy 8ft length of heavy fabric. Clearly it was nothing of the kind and could easily be tucked inside a jacket or a large enough pocket. Or indeed, folded for use as a type of shawl. Thank you robhouse.

                  Tom Wescott - I did try to plug your excellent summation of the shawl earlier in the thread, though I feel your hypothesis of who the shawl might actually have belonged to was a bit of a shot in the dark.

                  I decided not to download the kindle edition of Naming JtR until/if I read some positive reviews here from people who know more than I do, which is most of you. I am ready to be convinced, if the book can clearly demonstrate:

                  (a) the fabric does not post-date the murders
                  (b) it bears at least a passing resemblance to some item Eddowes owned
                  (c) there is a logical route by which it came into the possession of Simpson
                  (d) the fabric definitely has blood and/or semen on it
                  (e) the methods used to extract and develop the genetic material are not insanely controversial
                  (f) the results give a degree of individual identificational certainty greater than 1 in 40,000 or 400,000 or whatever it is
                  (g) controls and alternative suspects were tested for
                  (h) the descendants really are descendants
                  (i) no anagrams are involved
                  (j) the evidence is not bolstered by a convenient Victorian pocket watch
                  (k) fewer than six exclamation marks per page!!
                  (l) Vincent Van Gogh!!! Dead dogs!!!!! Solved!!!!!!!

                  Sounds reasonable to me.
                  Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                  Hi Henry

                  The fabric was taken to the Victorian and Albert Museum where it was identified..to my knowledge..as an Edwardian Table Runner.

                  So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.

                  Yours Jeff
                  G'day Jeff

                  I'm pretty sure henry's saying that the book needs to convince him that a-k are true.

                  IE prove that the fabric does not post-date the murders
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • guess

                    Hello Jonathan. My guess is that someone read the article about the Swanson family and their "ancestor" solving the crime.

                    Cheers.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • Hello you all!

                      And now my countrymen are asking mr. Louhelainen to use the same method to find out the murderer of Kyllikki Saari (a teenage girl murdered in 1953 and one of our classic murder mysteries...) .

                      All the best
                      jukka
                      "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                      Comment


                      • Thank you GUT, you're right.

                        Jeff:

                        So I'm interested where you had the material identified as pre-1888.
                        Answer: in your imagination.

                        Comment


                        • episodes

                          Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

                          Well, IF he suffered from schizophrenia, then it likely came in waves or episodes. You might compare him to my man, Jacob, who had alternating lucid periods as well as badly deranged and delusional ones.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • thanks

                            Hello Christer. Thanks for the information.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • Hello lynn!

                              I have to say again;

                              The eyewitnesses descriptions of the Ripper vary in the following way (if I remember correctely! ):

                              1) with a beard, 2) without a beard, 3) with a moustache, 4) with a moustache and a beard under his chin.

                              Sounds more like planning than a fit of rage, doesn't it?

                              All the best
                              jukka
                              "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

                              Comment


                              • crucial

                                Hello Henry. Yes, a-h are crucial. But I think that these are PRECISELY what cannot be answered.

                                Cheers.
                                LC

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X