Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[lynn cates]

inference

Hello Chris. Thanks.

You mean by inference? Yes, agreed.

Ockham's Razor? Perhaps you mean the Principle of Parsimony?

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Joliet

Thanks Stewart.
Appreciate those references, will take a long look through.
Found some newspaper reports from 1893/4 mentioning Cream's supposed confession at the gallows r.e 'I am Jack...' But they quote the source as 'the hangman' and don't actually name Billington.
I'm lucky enough to have a full (181 pages) copy of Cream's prison file, so I know exactly where he was in 1888...
Appreciate your time,
Amanda

I have known for many, many years where Cream was in 1888 - Joliet Prison. And you don't need the prison file to know that. It has been discussed many times in the past.

A friend of mine, Alison Bruce, looks at the tale in her biography of Billington, Billington Victorian Executioner, 2009, and dismisses it as a Billington invention. As she points out, as early as 1 July 1892 there was a press report stating, 'It is said sufficient evidence has been produced to establish the identity of Dr Thomas Neill Cream, now in custody in London on the charge of blackmail and murder as Jack the Ripper.' thus establishing him, wrongly, as a Ripper suspect at the time.

Probably the most effective argument against Cream ever saying any such thing on the scaffold was the presence of Henry Smith, of the City of London Police, who despite being present at the execution, never mentioned any such incident.

[S.Brett]

This could be interesting for you:

Nine days ago, I posted a link to Matilda Lubnowski (Aaron´s sister) on JTRForums:

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Matilda-Rachel-Lubnowski-born-Kosminski/137044012-1000060%28DF%29

If you have an account you will see her husband Morris Lubnowski, Aaron´s brother-in-law. The father of Morris was the brother of Golda Abrahams (Aaron´s mother) and therefore Morris and Aaron were cousins.

Greetings.

[Amanda]

Thanks

I have known for many, many years where Cream was in 1888 - Joliet Prison. And you don't need the prison file to know that. It has been discussed many times in the past.

A friend of mine, Alison Bruce, looks at the tale in her biography of Billington, Billington Victorian Executioner, 2009, and dismisses it as a Billington invention. As she points out, as early as 1 July 1892 there was a press report stating, 'It is said sufficient evidence has been produced to establish the identity of Dr Thomas Neill Cream, now in custody in London on the charge of blackmail and murder as Jack the Ripper.' thus establishing him, wrongly, as a Ripper suspect at the time.

Probably the most effective argument against Cream ever saying any such thing on the scaffold was the presence of Henry Smith, of the City of London Police, who despite being present at the execution, never mentioned any such incident.

Thanks Stewart,
You're so right, Henry Smith is very important in this case.

Didn't mean to show off that I have Cream's prison file, was just inferring that I've done in depth research.

Amanda

[PaulB]

This could be interesting for you:

Nine days ago, I posted a link to Matilda Lubnowski (Aaron´s sister) on JTRForums:

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Matilda-Rachel-Lubnowski-born-Kosminski/137044012-1000060%28DF%29

If you have an account you will see her husband Morris Lubnowski, Aaron´s brother-in-law. The father of Morris was the brother of Golda Abrahams (Aaron´s mother) and therefore Morris and Aaron were cousins.

Greetings.

I'd just point out that those images are copyright, just in case anyone thinks of pasting them here.

[lynn cates]

absolution

Hello Jonathan. Good post. We often forget that Mac made more and more incisive comments about Kosminski than either Anderson or Swanson.

And he tended to absolve him.

Cheers.
LC

[Amanda]

Just a thought...

I've always felt there was something premeditated and calculating about the JtR murders, which in my mind doesn't fit with AK.

Unless of course he was suffering from GPI and not schizophrenia, which might explain the deterioration of his mind, rendering him incapable of committing any further crimes once the disease had reached it's peak.

Amanda

[mickreed]

This could be interesting for you:

Nine days ago, I posted a link to Matilda Lubnowski (Aaron´s sister) on JTRForums:

http://www.worldvitalrecords.com/person/Matilda-Rachel-Lubnowski-born-Kosminski/137044012-1000060%28DF%29

If you have an account you will see her husband Morris Lubnowski, Aaron´s brother-in-law. The father of Morris was the brother of Golda Abrahams (Aaron´s mother) and therefore Morris and Aaron were cousins.

Greetings.

Thanks for this. I'd asked about these on jtrForums a week or two back. Maybe your response was to that. In any event I missed it. It's the first time I've seen photos of Matilda (assuming it really is her). I'd heard that they showed her with fair hair. Well that's possibly debatable (the older photo could show grey hair), but I'd be pretty sure that she has blue (or grey) eyes, which could support that claim. And certainly one of the children has fair hair and light eyes.

Now, the way genetics works, it doesn't guarantee that Aaron was fair haired and/or blue eyed, but it does make it feasible.

Jari's male DNA subject had dark hair (and brown eyes?)

So thanks very much.

[Jeff Leahy]

There is no evidence he was a compulsive masturbator. Go back and read my first posts in this thread on the matter. They're easy to find - they're my first posts on the forum.

(I've read the site for years, btw)

Medical opinion in the Victorian era was that masturbation made you insane. People that were insane were assumed to have been masturbators. Catch-22. See my quotes from Baden-Powell's book on the matter in my first posts.

There is zero evidence that Kosminski was a compulsive masturbator. My position is that he was not. It's a claim based on Victorian prudery and obsolete understanding of sexuality and mental illness.

If he was a compulsive public masturbator he would have been arrested - it was against the law.

If he was a compulsive public masturbator it indicates a diminished capacity or care for legal consequences - the Ripper clearly shows a concern for being caught, is clandestine in activities, etc.

The claim may simply be based on his possession of pornographic material found later when he was put in hospital - we don't know. We don't know where the claim comes from.

While your speculation is interesting, the known evidence suggests Aaron Kosminski masturbated. The level of that masturbation and victorian opinion might be raised and debated. But several sources mention that he masturbated. Thats what we have.

It is rare for schizophrenics to suffer this compulsive condition.

As for his other reported symptoms - they are completely typical of a paranoid-type schizophrenic illness.

I'm not going to argue about the details of these illnesses, I'm not a psychiatric professional but have been a carer for people who suffer from schizophrenia, as I note in my first couple of posts. I've been trained and well informed by medical professionals in this regard. I have personal experience of people undergoing the symptoms of this illness.

Sometimes there is no way to tell if someone is schizophrenic just by talking to them. At other times they display pressured speech, are incoherent, or whatnot. The court records are no help in telling what Kosminski was going through at that time. He could have sounded lucid, but been quite ill. We just can't know.

Are you talking about the Victorian era ideas of mental illness or generalising about the illness as it is understood now? You can be termed a paranoid schizophrenic at 16 years old if you show the right kind of symptoms.

(Actually, strictly speaking as of DSM V you wouldn't be termed this, it's an obsolete label, but I use it for sake of argument - Kosminski's reported symptoms are very much in the paranoid-type zone.)

Spree is possible. I don't agree that they are disorganised. There may be opportunism, I think there would have to be given that the perpetrator doesn't know where the prostitutes will be at any given time.

However, a disorganised thinker is very unlikely to be able to con a sex worker, find a suitable location, perform complicated eviscerations and avoid pursuit. There are a lot of variables, perhaps he was just very lucky, but I personally do not find the disorganised label very believable with this perpetrator.

Was Kosminski a suspect in 1888? Where is the evidence that he was being surveilled?

Obviously several of Aaron's symptoms suggest he suffered Paranoia.

Dr Lars Davidson used the term Hebophrenic because of Aarons age, on set and descent. The old terminolgies were Catatonic (Usual associated with early on set), Hebophrenic (Typically starting late teens early twenties and Paraniod (Later on-set) All these conditions can experience 'psychotic attacks'
Personally I don't think we should get to hung up on these old terms they just help us understand various traits within the schizophrenic condition

Most symptoms can and do cross the conditions and more recent research suggests a single syndrome as you seem to accept.

Aarons condition is actually fairly typical on set, 22 years of age.

I agree that it might be difficult from out ward appearance to know if someone is suffering an attack. It is after all in the sufferers mind. Like you I've listened to lots of different case studies that show themselves outwardly in many different ways.

I have no problem accepting Aaron could be quite believable to outsiders in the early on set of the illness. The family of course may have had no idea what was happening.

Was Aaron picked up early in the investigation. I believe so. They certain did house to house inquiries where he probably stayed. And then we have the bloody shirt in Batty street.

Yours Jeff

[lynn cates]

logic

Hello Mabuse.

"It's not up to observers to substantiate this claim about the shawl. It is up to Edwards to do so. He has failed to do so.

Others are perfectly within their rights to reject the claims as they stand, as per the standards of rational discourse and logic."

Very insightful. Finally, someone has read a logic text.

May your tribe increase.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

difference

Hello Neil.

"There's a difference between missing documentation and "documentation is not their strong point or anything else in law detection back then.""

Yes, a HUGE one.

Cheers.
LC

[wolfie1]

While your speculation is interesting, the known evidence suggests Aaron Kosminski masturbated. The level of that masturbation and victorian opinion might be raised and debated. But several sources mention that he masturbated. Thats what we have.

It is rare for schizophrenics to suffer this compulsive condition.



Obviously several of Aaron's symptoms suggest he suffered Paranoia.

Dr Lars Davidson used the term Hebophrenic because of Aarons age, on set and descent. The old terminolgies were Catatonic (Usual associated with early on set), Hebophrenic (Typically starting late teens early twenties and Paraniod (Later on-set) All these conditions can experience 'psychotic attacks'
Personally I don't think we should get to hung up on these old terms they just help us understand various traits within the schizophrenic condition

Most symptoms can and do cross the conditions and more recent research suggests a single syndrome as you seem to accept.

Aarons condition is actually fairly typical on set, 22 years of age.

I agree that it might be difficult from out ward appearance to know if someone is suffering an attack. It is after all in the sufferers mind. Like you I've listened to lots of different case studies that show themselves outwardly in many different ways.

I have no problem accepting Aaron could be quite believable to outsiders in the early on set of the illness. The family of course may have had no idea what was happening.

Was Aaron picked up early in the investigation. I believe so. They certain did house to house inquiries where he probably stayed. And then we have the bloody shirt in Batty street.

Yours Jeff

He may have also had concurrent Bi Polar, the Manic episodes can also include Hypersexuality in up to 80% of bipolar sufferers
, with frequent or infrequent episodes of varying levels and frequency.

[Chris]

It's the first time I've seen photos of Matilda (assuming it really is her). I'd heard that they showed her with fair hair. Well that's possibly debatable (the older photo could show grey hair), but I'd be pretty sure that she has blue (or grey) eyes, which could support that claim. And certainly one of the children has fair hair and light eyes.

That's right. What we were told is that Morris and Matilda and their children had blue eyes. I think the fair hair has emerged from Internet Chinese Whispers.

[S.Brett]

You´re welcome.

Jari's male DNA subject had dark hair (and brown eyes?)

brown/brown?

Please look here:

Unfortunately that's not true about Aaron. (His bodily condition was described as "fair", but not his hair.)

In the photographs of Morris and Matilda (Aaron's sister), the hair colouring does look quite light in the later ones, but I think that may be partly because they were greying by then. In the earliest photo, their hair colouring looks quite dark to me.

What we have been told - from information from a granddaughter of Matilda - is that "Matilda and Morris, her grandparents, and all their children were small and all had blue eyes. However we do not know whether all Matilda's brothers and sisters had blue eyes or not."

Morris was a first cousin of Matilda (Morris's father and Matilda's mother were Lubnowski siblings). For what it's worth, David Lubin was the son of another Lubnowski sibling, and his biographer, Olivia Agresti, mentions his "clear blue eyes":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lubin

[mickreed]

Thanks for this. I'd asked about these on jtrForums a week or two back. Maybe your response was to that. In any event I missed it. It's the first time I've seen photos of Matilda (assuming it really is her). I'd heard that they showed her with fair hair. Well that's possibly debatable (the older photo could show grey hair), but I'd be pretty sure that she has blue (or grey) eyes, which could support that claim. And certainly one of the children has fair hair and light eyes.

Now, the way genetics works, it doesn't guarantee that Aaron was fair haired and/or blue eyed, but it does make it feasible.

Jari's male DNA subject had dark hair (and brown eyes?)

So thanks very much.

Further to the above comments on Matilda's photos - if they really are of her.

If she really does have light (probably blue) eyes, as I think she does, then it tells us some very important things.

It means that the pair of her genes for blue eyes will both be blue. Were one of the pair brown, then her eyes would be brown since that is the dominant gene.

I'm hopeless at even the simplest maths. Maybe Mabuse or someone could help.

For her to have blue eyes, then her parents (and therefore presumably, Aaron's) would have had, between them four eye colour genes thus:

Dad - both of the pair blue, or at least one blue

Mum - ditto

So possible combinations are four blue genes, three blue genes, or two blue genes available for passing on to her and to Aaron.

The odds are therefore, that Aaron would have a least one blue-eye gene even if his eyes were dark. It is possible that he could have two dark-eye colour genes but the odds are against it.

So, if Jari is correct that the DNA showed dark hair and eyes, then we need to know what each of the gene pairs showed. If both were dark, then it could be Aaron, but the chances are much reduced. If one is dark and one is fair/blue, then the chances of it being Kosminski are raised but, of course not confirmed.

My head hurts, anyone add to this?