Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Stewart P Evans]

Just love this...

Well I was 10 when I was first told about Jack and Dorset, and then given my first book on him.

Just love this... Well, it was around 1957 that I first read the 'Dear Boss' letter poster, then on display in Madame Tussaud's, and had my interest fired.

[Amanda]

You're how old!!!

Just love this... Well, it was around 1957 that I first read the 'Dear Boss' letter poster, then on display in Madame Tussaud's, and had my interest fired.

Hi Stewart,
So....you're almost old enough to have bumped into Jack himself on the streets of London (only joking!!!!).

On a more serious note, do you by any chance remember the Lambeth Poisoner display being at Madame Tussuads at that time?

Amanda

[wolfie1]

G'day Wolfie

Sorry but which next word do you mean?

I believe it reads as 'seen dec'd'. The author has a distinctive way of noting the letter s, and why would he/she write the letter s a different way with the loop facing the other way. Although his ee in the second word is also slightly different from the e in the first word.

Edited... Meant to say, the e in the second word, is slightly more pinched than the ee in the first word by comparison
.

[GUT]

I believe it reads as 'seen dec'd'. The author has a distinctive way of noting the letter s, and why would he/she write the letter s a different way with the loop facing the other way. Although his ee in the second word is also slightly different from the e in the first word.

G'day again Wolfie

But if it says "Seen Dec'd" There is no "S" in the second word. I think the second word is someone's initials or signature.

[wolfie1]

G'day again Wolfie

But if it says "Seen Dec'd" There is no "S" in the second word. I think the second word is someone's initials or signature.

Someone else commented the second word is sen...I am saying it is decd, short for deceased. And the second word cannot be another s due to the author style.

[mickreed]

I believe it reads as 'seen dec'd'. The author has a distinctive way of noting the letter s, and why would he/she write the letter s a different way with the loop facing the other way. Although his ee in the second word is also slightly different from the e in the first word.

Edited... Meant to say, the e in the second word, is slightly more pinched than the ee in the first word by comparison
.

Logic (not always the best guide) would suggest it's someone's initials.

Aaron's admitted, paperwork done, then a doctor (or someone who has to make some kind of assessment) notes that he's done it, and initials it. Happens all the time.

But, as I've repeatedly argued, that would only be an assumption.

[GUT]

Someone else commented the second word is sen...I am saying it is decd, short for deceased. And the second word cannot be another s due to the author style.

OK I get what you're saying, don't agree but I do understand.

[Stewart P Evans]

Yes...

Hi Stewart,
So....you're almost old enough to have bumped into Jack himself on the streets of London (only joking!!!!).
On a more serious note, do you by any chance remember the Lambeth Poisoner display being at Madame Tussuads at that time?
Amanda

Yes, I recall that the Cream display was there in the 1950s.

[Mabuse]

Hi Mabase …When turning up ten years late for a party, it might do you well to check many of the thousands of posts created on the subject on the two leading ripper forums.

Yes, I've read them.

I'm not addressing what has been written before. I'm addressing what has been written in this thread.

I've not actually analysed those records with anyone that does not believe Aaron Kosminski was suffering a form of schizophrenia.

I agree that his illness sounds like paranoid-type schizophrenia, the point I was making is that we can't be certain. Stating that he definitely had it is too black and white. We cannot be sure.

If Aaron were a schizophrenic he wasn't typical, in that compulsive masturbation is unusual. Schizophrenics tend to have a low sex drive.

There is no evidence he was a compulsive masturbator. Go back and read my first posts in this thread on the matter. They're easy to find - they're my first posts on the forum.

(I've read the site for years, btw)

Medical opinion in the Victorian era was that masturbation made you insane. People that were insane were assumed to have been masturbators. Catch-22. See my quotes from Baden-Powell's book on the matter in my first posts.

There is zero evidence that Kosminski was a compulsive masturbator. My position is that he was not. It's a claim based on Victorian prudery and obsolete understanding of sexuality and mental illness.

If he was a compulsive public masturbator he would have been arrested - it was against the law.

If he was a compulsive public masturbator it indicates a diminished capacity or care for legal consequences - the Ripper clearly shows a concern for being caught, is clandestine in activities, etc.

The claim may simply be based on his possession of pornographic material found later when he was put in hospital - we don't know. We don't know where the claim comes from.

As for his other reported symptoms - they are completely typical of a paranoid-type schizophrenic illness.

We know kosminski had periods of lucidity as he was reported in court.

I'm not going to argue about the details of these illnesses, I'm not a psychiatric professional but have been a carer for people who suffer from schizophrenia, as I note in my first couple of posts. I've been trained and well informed by medical professionals in this regard. I have personal experience of people undergoing the symptoms of this illness.

Sometimes there is no way to tell if someone is schizophrenic just by talking to them. At other times they display pressured speech, are incoherent, or whatnot. The court records are no help in telling what Kosminski was going through at that time. He could have sounded lucid, but been quite ill. We just can't know.

Paraniod Schizophrenics by and large tend to be older and not reach the catatonic state until much later.

Are you talking about the Victorian era ideas of mental illness or generalising about the illness as it is understood now? You can be termed a paranoid schizophrenic at 16 years old if you show the right kind of symptoms.

(Actually, strictly speaking as of DSM V you wouldn't be termed this, it's an obsolete label, but I use it for sake of argument - Kosminski's reported symptoms are very much in the paranoid-type zone.)

I've also postulated that the JtR murders are not typical Paraniod serial killer murders and have asked the question are they more like modern 'Spree' killings in their execution. Far more typical of disorganised psychotic attacks?

Spree is possible. I don't agree that they are disorganised. There may be opportunism, I think there would have to be given that the perpetrator doesn't know where the prostitutes will be at any given time.

However, a disorganised thinker is very unlikely to be able to con a sex worker, find a suitable location, perform complicated eviscerations and avoid pursuit. There are a lot of variables, perhaps he was just very lucky, but I personally do not find the disorganised label very believable with this perpetrator.

If you check accounts given by both Cox and Sagar you will note they watched a man in the Eastend at a certain premises.

Was Kosminski a suspect in 1888? Where is the evidence that he was being surveilled?

[Chris]

It seems like you have a good grasp on the evidence the book presents. I'm having quite the chore trying to piece it together through this giant thread. Could I trouble you to create a new thread that presents the important evidence right up front? I think it would be helpful to everyone.

To be honest, I think it's probably a waste of time posting information to the boards. with things as they are. I'll give some thought to an alternative.

[Amanda]

Just wondering

Yes, I recall that the Cream display was there in the 1950s.

Hi,
Was just wondering if there was any mention about him being a JtR suspect with the display? Or anything about Billington's claim of Cream saying "I am Jack.."

Think it would be interesting to know whether Cream was considered a real suspect by Ripperologists in the 1950's or whether this is something more recent (which in turn would make Billington's claim heresay/ family legend).

I do know that in 1892 Madame Tussaud's paid £200 for Cream's clothing. Seems a lot of money for a poisoner.
Thanks,
Amanda

[Stewart P Evans]

Bearing in mind...

Hi,
Was just wondering if there was any mention about him being a JtR suspect with the display? Or anything about Billington's claim of Cream saying "I am Jack.."
Think it would be interesting to know whether Cream was considered a real suspect by Ripperologists in the 1950's or whether this is something more recent (which in turn would make Billington's claim heresay/ family legend).
I do know that in 1892 Madame Tussaud's paid £200 for Cream's clothing. Seems a lot of money for a poisoner.
Thanks,
Amanda

Bearing in mind that I was very young at the time, I do not recall any Cream/Ripper connection being made in the display.

However, the Billington tale was established many years earlier and, indeed, had featured in Donald McCormick's popular and seminal Ripper book, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, in 1959, pp. 145-147. The tale figured in Macnaghten's 1914 book, Days of My Years, p 114 in his lengthy piece on Cream. However, he dismisses Cream saying, 'During the whole period covered by the Ripper's crimes Neil [sic] Cream was in prison on the other side of the Atlantic.' As we know Ripper theories are not easily disposed of by such minor issues as facts and this did not prevent mention of the tale in many other books.

In the Jack the Ripper section of his 1932 book, Murders & Murder Trials 1812-1912, H.M. Walbrook again repeats the tale (p 287), so it persisted and Cream emerged as still worth a mention as a Ripper suspect.

However, McCormick, the instigator of much Ripper legend, and nonsense, gives it a lengthy mention although, in fairness to him, he does state that Cream was incarcerated in the USA in 1888. Later theorizing got over this little problem by suggesting bribery of prison officials by Cream and a double.

[Chris]

I have no immediate urge to buy the book. It is my decision, and mine alone, how I spend my money ...

Of course. But - to say it one more time - the point is that if people do exercise their right not to buy the book, it's unreasonable for them to ask endless questions in the expectation that those who have bought it will go to the trouble of gratifying their curiosity.

And if you've been following the thread, you'll know the questions Phil Carter addressed to Mick Reed were only the latest in a long series of questions, most of them questions about the contents of the book, addressed to the world at large.

[Amanda]

Theory...

Bearing in mind that I was very young at the time, I do not recall any Cream/Ripper connection being made in the display.

However, the Billington tale was established many years earlier and, indeed, had featured in Donald McCormick's popular and seminal Ripper book, The Identity of Jack the Ripper, in 1959, pp. 145-147. The tale figured in Macnaghten's 1914 book, Days of My Years, p 114 in his lengthy piece on Cream. However, he dismisses Cream saying, 'During the whole period covered by the Ripper's crimes Neil [sic] Cream was in prison on the other side of the Atlantic.' As we know Ripper theories are not easily disposed of by such minor issues as facts and this did not prevent mention of the tale in many other books.

In the Jack the Ripper section of his 1932 book, Murders & Murder Trials 1812-1912, H.M. Walbrook again repeats the tale (p 287), so it persisted and Cream emerged as still worth a mention as a Ripper suspect.

However, McCormick, the instigator of much Ripper legend, and nonsense, gives it a lengthy mention although, in fairness to him, he does state that Cream was incarcerated in the USA in 1888. Later theorizing got over this little problem by suggesting bribery of prison officials by Cream and a double.

Thanks Stewart.
Appreciate those references, will take a long look through.

Found some newspaper reports from 1893/4 mentioning Cream's supposed confession at the gallows r.e 'I am Jack...' But they quote the source as 'the hangman' and don't actually name Billington.

I'm lucky enough to have a full (181 pages) copy of Cream's prison file, so I know exactly where he was in 1888...

Appreciate your time,
Amanda

[PaulB]

Of course. But - to say it one more time - the point is that if people do exercise their right not to buy the book, it's unreasonable for them to ask endless questions in the expectation that those who have bought it will go to the trouble of gratifying their curiosity.

And if you've been following the thread, you'll know the questions Phil Carter addressed to Mick Reed were only the latest in a long series of questions, most of them questions about the contents of the book, addressed to the world at large.

Absolutely right.