Kosminski - Dead or Alive

[Stephen Thomas]

In November 1888, anybody who could spell "knife" ran the risk of becoming a favoured suspect of the police

And them what couldn't spell 'nice' as well.

[mklhawley]

Druitt was dead soon after Kelly, not Tumblety and not Aaron Kosminski, yet somebody is mixing and matching bits and pieces and telling all this to significant police figures.

Tom Divall in the 1930's claims that Macnaghten had told him that the Ripper was a man who fled to the US and died in an asylum. This was soon after Kelly, and the murders ended.

Hi Jonathan,

The fact that someone admitted Macnaghten was basically mixing and matching is very convincing.


Hi Fisherman,
Yes indeed.


Sincerely,

Mike

[Fisherman]

I love the very 'very'! I have to tell you, though. With Tumblety, it's not a case of limited evidence so either of us might be right. 'Very' actually means 'very', just as Stewart has pointed out. You will enjoy my next two articles coming out in the near future. This should clarify things.

Now, back to Kosminski.

Sincerely,

Mike

Looking forward to it, Mike - I could do with a brushing up on my Tumblety. Will you go into the homosexuality bit too?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jonathan H]

Littlechild writes to Sims that somebody 'believed' that Tumblety committed suicide. Satisfyingly it could have happened after he jumped his bail.

This echoes what Swanson jots down about 'Kosminski': satisfyingly deceased soon after Kelly.

Littlechild also never questions the status of 'Dr. D' which we know from all Sims other writings was the [alleged] prime suspect of 1888.

The 'very' matches that notion: the chief suspect -- except a Yank not a Brit, and was arrested and not about to be, and believed to have taken his own life, not that we we were sure, let alone in a river.

Does nobody else see a pattern here?

Druitt was dead soon after Kelly, not Tumblety and not Aaron Kosminski, yet somebody is mixing and matching bits and pieces and telling all this to significant police figures.

Tom Divall in the 1930's claims that Macnaghten had told him that the Ripper was a man who fled to the US and died in an asylum. This was soon after Kelly, and the murders ended.

[mklhawley]

One mention after event by a senior policeman....But one who was actually involved at the time........I'm not talking about later refs by Anderson/Swanson,but just comparing Littlechild to MM..........Obviously there's a lot of newspaper stuff about and by Tumblety,but I'm just looking at Police sources........

And that’s not the only police source. The entire cascade of Tumblety newspaper articles find their origin from a New York World foreign correspondent stating that his source was, …’the police’. This was confirmed by US Chiefs of Police Byrnes, Crowley, and Campbell by them admitting in one way or another that Tumblety was considered a Ripper suspect by Scotland Yard.

Now, back to Kosminski.

Mike

[Steve S]

Amounting to...?

Fisherman

One mention after event by a senior policeman....But one who was actually involved at the time........I'm not talking about later refs by Anderson/Swanson,but just comparing Littlechild to MM..........Obviously there's a lot of newspaper stuff about and by Tumblety,but I'm just looking at Police sources........

[mklhawley]

I notice that Stewart Evans asks why the "very" is left out when Tumblety is spoken of. And that is a fair question. In my case, I guess I am somewhat coloured - as you suggest - by my own take on who Jack was, and so I make that blunder. Littlechild wrote "very" but it is a "very" that does not feel very "very" to me. Call it a hunch, and I know that you have the upper hand semantically here, but there you are.

I love the very 'very'! I have to tell you, though. With Tumblety, it's not a case of limited evidence so either of us might be right. 'Very' actually means 'very', just as Stewart has pointed out. You will enjoy my next two articles coming out in the near future. This should clarify things.

Now, back to Kosminski.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Amounting to...?

Fisherman

[Steve S]

I think it's fair to say that's there's at least as much evidence to support Tumblety as a contemporary Police suspect as MM's trio..........

[Fisherman]

Anderson not only personally contacted US Chiefs of Police about Tumblety, he sent Andrews to Canada for this reason. They didn't invest that much time and energy on anyone else. In view of this, you are way off the mark. You are still trying to compare Tumblety's public persona with your perception of who JTR was. Wrong thing to do, and Scotland Yard did not do this.

Well, I MAY be way off the mark, just like you say.

Then again, I may be right on it - maybe my feeling that Littlechild did not really believe all that much in Tumblety is absolutely correct. We will both find it hard to prove our takes in this respect.

I notice that Stewart Evans asks why the "very" is left out when Tumblety is spoken of. And that is a fair question. In my case, I guess I am somewhat coloured - as you suggest - by my own take on who Jack was, and so I make that blunder. Littlechild wrote "very" but it is a "very" that does not feel very "very" to me. Call it a hunch, and I know that you have the upper hand semantically here, but there you are.

The yard perhaps sent Andrews after Tumblety, yes. But is that not only a perhaps? The snag here seems to be that Andrews originally went over the Atlantic to deliver a criminal from London to Toronto, so the journey seems to have been a joint venture of some sort. After that, it seems it was reported that Andrews moved on to New York, but no confirmation has been found that he arrived there.
Looking upon it like that, the Tumblety business may well have been second-hand stuff.
But I truly donīt know - Tumblety has never been on my list of truly interesting suspects (surprise!), and so I am not updated on him. He is something of a blind spot for me, so far. If I have missed out here, then I would be happy to learn more.

The best,
Fisherman

[Stewart P Evans]

Why?

Why do people always leave out the 'very' from Littlechild's description of Tumblety as a 'very likely one'?

[Phil H]

The Ripper was incarcerated rather quickly according to Swanson, and he died shortly afterwards. The case would not have been "an old case", Phil.

It was a PAST case, Fisherman. "Old" is a relative term.What happened last week can be old to a senior civil servant/official if the agenda has shifted.

I was a UK civil servant from the mid 70s working with a lot of senior men not unlike Anderson. They focused on what was "politically" sensitive at the time, and on things that had to be done.

So yes, Anderson etc would go to a potential "Ripper" murder scene because they had to be seen to do so; they wrote about in their memoirs because it had been high-profile and remained in the piblic mind; the failure publicly to bring the culprit to justice was undoubtedly an embarrassment.

But none of that is the same as saying they continued to take a professional interest in the case. They were not paid to do so. They were paid to "grip" (as the word for it is) the issues of the moment, not of the past. Sir RA and DSS were of the view that they had put their man away - largely end of story.

That's how I see it.

Phil

[mklhawley]

In November 1888, anybody who could spell "knife" ran the risk of becoming a favoured suspect of the police, Iīd say. Tumblety was not a womanīs man, he was a (quack) doctor and he was somewhat exotic, so he had a lot going for him! Small wonder that the Yard went after him, thus. But in spite of Littlechild naming him a "likely" suspect, I donīt really see all that much enthusiasm on his behalf. Itīs kind of like the MacNaghten guys;"hereīs a bunch thatīs not all that bad", sort of.
It has been said that Littlechild opted for a sadist, and that Tumblety didnīt match that frame; I donīt know how they could be sure of that though. I just donīt see Littlechild carrying much of a torch here.

As for Mackenzie, there was never any universal agreement that she was a Ripper victim - some said she was, others disagreed. Bond and Phillips represented the two camps. And of course, Bond was Andersonīs man ...

The best,
Fisherman

Anderson not only personally contacted US Chiefs of Police about Tumblety, he sent Andrews to Canada for this reason. They didn't invest that much time and energy on anyone else. In view of this, you are way off the mark. You are still trying to compare Tumblety's public persona with your perception of who JTR was. Wrong thing to do, and Scotland Yard did not do this.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman,

The intention of Littclechild was to show Sims that not only was he keen on Tumblety, so was the rest of Scotland Yard in November 1888. Littlechild stated Tumblety was 'a likely suspect' and Anderson 'only thought he knew'. It was because of the MacKenzie murder that caused Anderson and company to disregard Tumblety, since Tumblety was across the Atlantic at the time.

Littlechild's involvement with Tumblety and the Whitechapel investigation occurred in November, since his old boss, Anderson, needed Tumblety's information from the Special Branch files. Littlechild not knowing of Tumblety after November 1888 is very understandable, since he personally was not investigating Tumblety, but doing important Irish nationalist stuff.

Mike

In November 1888, anybody who could spell "knife" ran the risk of becoming a favoured suspect of the police, Iīd say. Tumblety was not a womanīs man, he was a (quack) doctor and he was somewhat exotic, so he had a lot going for him! Small wonder that the Yard went after him, thus. But in spite of Littlechild naming him a "likely" suspect, I donīt really see all that much enthusiasm on his behalf. Itīs kind of like the MacNaghten guys;"hereīs a bunch thatīs not all that bad", sort of.
It has been said that Littlechild opted for a sadist, and that Tumblety didnīt match that frame; I donīt know how they could be sure of that though. I just donīt see Littlechild carrying much of a torch here.

As for Mackenzie, there was never any universal agreement that she was a Ripper victim - some said she was, others disagreed. Bond and Phillips represented the two camps. And of course, Bond was Andersonīs man ...

The best,
Fisherman

[mklhawley]

I think these were very different matters, Lynn - I donīt see Littlechild being very keen on Tumblety at all; he was looking for somebody a bit more rough at the edges. So his erroneous belief that Tumblety did away with himself is not something I think Littlechild would have gone to any great lengths to have proven.
The asylum suspect referred to by Anderson and Swanson, though, was seemingly a man that was invested heavily in. I donīt see him being able to slip under the radar.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fisherman,

The intention of Littclechild was to show Sims that not only was he keen on Tumblety, so was the rest of Scotland Yard in November 1888. Littlechild stated Tumblety was 'a likely suspect' and Anderson 'only thought he knew'. It was because of the MacKenzie murder that caused Anderson and company to disregard Tumblety, since Tumblety was across the Atlantic at the time.

Littlechild's involvement with Tumblety and the Whitechapel investigation occurred in November, since his old boss, Anderson, needed Tumblety's information from the Special Branch files. Littlechild not knowing of Tumblety after November 1888 is very understandable, since he personally was not investigating Tumblety, but doing important Irish nationalist stuff.

Mike