A Case of Misattribution?

[Tom_Wescott]

McKinley. Yeah, that's the guy. He didn't do anything for the blacks, per se, so nobody remembers his name.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Garry Wroe]

It seems quite likely by the cashous that Liz Stride was comfortable right up until the moment he grabs her, so the murder may have been a spontaneous act by her killer.

Agreed, Mike. The sequence of events described by Schwartz suggests to my mind that Stride knew her attacker and had no suspicion that she was in serious or imminent danger. The three quiet screams confirm this beyond any reasonable doubt. I therefore think it likely that she entered Dutfield’s Yard willingly in order to pacify Broad Shoulders and took the cachous from her pocket as a peace offering. At some point she did or said something that reignited Broad Shoulders’ anger and he made a grab for her neckerchief, pulled her to the ground, cut her throat, made the body less conspicuous by rolling it on to its left side, then immediately departed the crime scene.

Such a scenario does not in itself exclude the possibility that Broad Shoulders was a club member, but the cry of ‘Lipski!’ makes this unlikely in my view. On balance I consider it far more likely that Stride was killed by a jilted boyfriend, a fellow lodger or one of her pub acquaintances. Whoever he was, however, Stride knew him and didn’t consider him dangerous.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Garry,

Your idea that Stride knew BS Man because she didn't scream loudly is not supported by the multiple accounts in the papers of LVP prostitutes, including some well-known ones to all of us, where the woman was attacked but didn't scream. Margaret Hames and Frances Coles' mate come immediately to mind. By contrast, Stride wasn't even punched, but merely pulled along and perhaps pushed. Had she known him, she would have been more likely to have acted out back, as fighting domestics typically did and do. With an angry stranger, however, you do as little to provoke him as you can.

And it's been demonstrated that BS Man was almost certainly not Michael Kidney, yet there are no other men in her life known to us who she would have openly allowed to have behaved this way, or who would have had cause to.

Then there's also the matter of location. Stride was tucked inside the dark gateway of the club yard and BS Man was merely walking by. SHE would have initiated the conversation with HIM. It's doubtful that either would have had a good look at each other until after the first words were spoken. The actions described by Schwartz are the clear actions of a woman soliciting.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

Just pointing out that if the story Israel gave was not legitimate then BSM and Pipeman and all that storyline simply disappear.

Which leaves a quiet night in front of the gates from 12:40 to 12:55 and Liz likely inside the yard, which changes the probable killer from someone attending the club or just passing by spotting her in the passageway.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

That's true, if the Schwartz chess piece is taken from the board, then the game changes. But Schwartz isn't a chess piece, and in spite of our best efforts, we have not found cause to remove him from the boards.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

That's true, if the Schwartz chess piece is taken from the board, then the game changes. But Schwartz isn't a chess piece, and in spite of our best efforts, we have not found cause to remove him from the boards.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No matter how sure I am personally about the validity of his story I cannot deny that I do not have the ammo to remove him. I can see a valid variation that may have occurred inside the passageway during that 15 minute interval though, but that story wouldnt place the killer offsite, he wouldnt likely have been a gentile inside the passage, and he wouldnt also be the most likely suspect in the investigation based on the timing.

The story is so fortuitous its almost miraculous from their (club admin) perspective.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Tom_Wescott]

Fortuitous for whom? As for the street being empty, I would agree that was suspicious if not for the fact that the other witnesses around that time said the same thing - Mortimer and Brown.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[sleekviper]

That is backwards Tom. Woodrow Wilson said, “The white men were roused by a mere instinct of self preservation… until at last there had sprung into existence a great Ku Klux Klan, a veritable empire of the South, to protect the Southern country.”

McKinley said, "Our black allies must neither be forsaken nor deserted. I weigh my words. This is the great question not only of the present, but is the great question of the future; and this question will never be settled until it is settled upon principles of justice, recognizing the sanctity of the Constitution of the United States."
McKinley, in breaking precedent, named numerous African Americans to appointed offices, Wilson removed many.

[Supe]

Chris George must be on vacation, else he would have leapt in with the first (and last word) on Fort McHenry. As it is, Tom was right that McHenry strikes a historical chord. It was the fort in Baltimore harbor that successfully withstood a British attack during the War of 1812 and that inspired Francis Scott Key to pen the poem "The Defense of Fort McHenry," the words to which became the lyrics of our national anthem.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Sleek. Did he appoint Frederick Douglas?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Sleek will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Mc Kinley appointed, among else, George Jackson, a former slave in Texas. (A George Jackson who had nothing to do with the alleged Le Grand con name!) Plus I'm surprised that noone came up yet about Jerrymanderizing and Ripper cartels!
Oh, and pertaining to "noone", Czolgosz (hope I spelled it right) also went by the Yiddish con name "Nieman", sharing a trait with Eddowes. Small world.

[lynn cates]

Anachreon

Hello Don. Out of curiosity, what was the source of the melody?

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Take note of House-house-searches and the Batty Street Lodger Stories (October 1888)!!!

Anderson's book strongly suggests that no particular individual was uncovered during the house to house search in October. It was this lack of progress concerning persons living on their own, or with work premises at hand, that led Anderson to surmise that he must be living with someone and that someone/those people must be Polish Jews.

“the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer” (Anderson)- Schwartz???

The Pall Mall Gazette seems to clinch it for Schwartz not being the witness, which would appear to cast doubt on the perceived veracity of Schwartz's story as Stride was deemed to be a ripper victim.

It does not necessarily follow that the witness must have been Lawende.

[mariab]

No matter how sure I am personally about the validity of his story I cannot deny that I do not have the ammo to remove him. I can see a valid variation that may have occurred inside the passageway during that 15 minute interval though, but {...} the killer wouldnt likely have been a gentile {...}
The story is so fortuitous its almost miraculous from their (club admin) perspective.

Fortuitous for whom?

I think he means fortuitous for the IWEC.
Questioning the validity of Schwartz' story due to many details being suspicious doesn't necessarily translate into calling the entirety of Schwartz' story a phantasy. Especially since we have a WVC member fitting Pipeman's physical description located not too far from the events (on Mile End Road and surroundings) who subsequently got involved big time into the investigation, presenting fake witnesses and other fabrications (like the ubiquitous grape stalk, the "Lodger" etc.). In my interpretation, there's a strong possibility that Le Grand's fabrications and Schwartz' plausibly fabricated testimony might have been related. I'm trying to research the relations between the IWEC and the WVC and I'm seeing William Wess' instrumentalizing a witness as an intimidation maneuver. Not too different from Le Grand having used Packer subsequently.

Fleetwood, could you perhaps quote/cite the Pall Mall Gazette report in question (doubting the veracity of Schwartz)?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Fleetwood, could you perhaps quote/cite the Pall Mall Gazette report in question (doubting the veracity of Schwartz)?

Maria,

I don't recall the exact words or the edition/date.

It does say something like: "the suspect was seen with the victim a few minutes before the body was discovered". It seems to be an authoritative piece in that other details are mentioned in the article that are factual.

My deduction is that this would discount Schwartz, as there is no mention of a struggle. And this would consign his entire story to the dustbin as quite clearly Stride was deemed to be a ripper victim and had Schwartz been believed then almost certainly he would have been deemed to have been the primary witness.

My problem with Lawende is that I find it a stretch to suggest that the murderer would have hanged based upon a sighting 10 minutes prior to the body having being found, but I suppose it depends upon whether or not they had some other piece of supporting evidence and the thought process of Swanson.

Also, I find it hard to believe that 'City PC' could be mistaken for city witness. It is an important event in the case and a senior policeman mistakenly claiming a policeman was the witness - well, it's a bit too much for me.