A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

May the Schwartz be with you!

Hello Dave. IF Schwartz's story is true, then I have no doubt that BS man killed Liz. But after the assault, I'd like to know WHEN the cachous came out and why.

Christer used to have an almost passing story here--I mean the old, Pre-Lechmere, Christer.

But Tom is right: we cannot state definitively whether Schwartz is lying or not.

Hence . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps he did, and it was so quick that Schwartz did not realise he had witnessed her murder.

Hi Jon
Absolutely. I have always thought this coud be very possible-Scwartz may have actually seen her getting her throat cut by BS man.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Mike

I'd guess you and Lynn are singing from similar Hymnsheets here, (and even Tom was once considering becoming a choirboy)...

Perhaps I'm over-presumptuous though regarding any theory you might or might not subscribe to!

Trouble is, as Tom once quite rightly commented to one of my posts, there's no proof and we simply don't know enough about the man at this stage...interesting though...

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Romans go home!

Hello Ruby. You mean, "Romani ite domum"?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

I was thinking about a few questions that trouble me when assessing Israels story, and I thought it might be helpful to some others doing the same;

1) What was the address Israels wife was moving from that Saturday?
2) Did the translator used at his statement know Israel and vouch for him?
3) Why didnt Spooner and his date see Israel exiting Berner Street at 12:45ish?
4) Since Fanny heard bootsteps when not at the door, how is it that she missed Israels and the Pipemans?
5) What is the only portion of Israels statement that is mentioned in later internal memorandum?
6) Did Israel see Morris Eagle going from the front door to the club side entrance inside the gates as he approached?
7) Did Morris Eagle or Joe Lave see anyone at all on the street in either direction at around 12:40?
8) Had Israel ever attended that club? Was he a member?
9) Who translated for Israel and how was that arranged?
10) Do we know if anyone was interviewed to substantiate any of Israels statement?
11) Do we have any hard evidence that Israel Schwartz gave testimony at the formal Inquest into Liz Strides murder, or that he was a protected witness kept from the proceedings?
12) When he was interviewed by the police, what occupation did he give them?
13) Did anyone in the press do a follow up interview with Israel Schwartz after that weekend?
14) If Lawende is the witness that is supposed to have been "the only person who saw the Ripper", then what possible value does Israel Schwartz's sighting have to the Ripper investigations?
15) If Schwartz is the witness that was "the only person to have seen the Ripper", then why is Lawende called in years later to identify someone thought to be a suspect in the Whitechapel killings?

I realize that I and many others could add lots of other questions to this list, but my point is really to illustrate how little we know about Israel, what specific information he gave via his translator, and how contradictory that is to any other witness we know of in these cases.

Every witness is interviewed, and the facts were checked as well as could be. You can bet someone went to The Victorian after George Hutchinson said he stayed there. You can bet Harris and Levy were asked to verify that they were with Lawende that night at that time, you can feel safe in assuming that every story by every relevant person was investigated for authenticity.

The problem with Israel is for every question I can think of regarding his story there is no information available that can be used for verification.

Including the actual story as told to the Detective that Sunday night. That report is missing or gone.

There are too many unknowns and zero reassurances. Abberline and Swanson saying they believed the story in internal memos doesnt reassure me.

Best regards,

Mike R

[Cogidubnus]

I went to a girl's school, Dave.

Somewhere in Sussex?

Dave

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

No Colin, our next step was conversing with "puella" - but it was after all a single-sex boys grammar school and we were, therefore, somewhat obsessed with the subjecy of "puella" !

Dave

Homo, hominis, homini ? I went to a girl's school, Dave.

[Cogidubnus]

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

No Colin, our next step was conversing with "puella" - but it was after all a single-sex boys grammar school and we were, therefore, somewhat obsessed with the subjecy of "puella" !

Dave

[Rubyretro]

Hi Ruby,

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

Regards, Bridewell.

Exactly , Bridewell...mensa mensa mensam ? (er... book 1 page 2) mensae ?

[Bridewell]

Mensa

(Sorry Lynn -it appears that Bingo Lingo was more immediately attractive to me than brushing up my amo, amas, amat...)

Hi Ruby,

Amo amas amat? The next step is conversing with tables, isn't it?!

Regards, Bridewell.

[Rubyretro]

'WDW !' is a term that I just learn't today -in an effort to broaden my vocabulary by self education. .

It means 'well done Winner', and is a bingo expression to congratulate those having a Full House

(2TG means '2 to go' for a Full House

Wtg means 'way to go' to 'congratulate' other losers ).

I am a useful and intelligent person, I'm sure. The fact that I would use a bit of my day off memorising a chunk of the Bingo Lingo Dictionary is no indication of anything odd (er...).

(Sorry Lynn -it appears that Bingo Lingo was more immediately attractive to me than brushing up my amo, amas, amat...)

(nb : I have always lost at Bingo ).

[Bridewell]

Wdw

And what may I ask does WDW mean in the English language?

I want to know the answer to that one too! (My guess is a mis-spelt WOW, but I'm probably going to be horribly embarrassed when I learn the truth).

Regards, Bridewell

[Lechmere]

And what may I ask does WDW mean in the English language?

[GregBaron]

The Master...

You can't beat Hitchcock and Dostoevsky in my opinion.

RH

Don't forget Poe boys.........to which both men were admittedly indebted............Is not "Tell Tale Heart" rather a good story of guilt?



Greg

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Lechmere;227960]Garry

I have my doubts about the whole Schwartz episode. He may have seen something occur but whatever he may have seen probably did not involve the person known as Jack the Ripper.

Totally agree.

The whole episode may well have got magnified in intensity in his mind, once he found out that a murder had occurred in that street.

Very likely.

I am inclined to think that if the BS pushing over incident did happen, then if she cried softly it may have been as she didn't feel that threatened (not to the extent of her life being under threat) and as a soliciting prostitute didn't want to attract too much attention.
I doubt that BS man - if he existed - was the murderer of Stride.

I have always said that, in all my posts on this subject.

The physical evidence pertinent to the attack on Stride suggests it was carried out very quickly. It seems likely to have been botched. People seldom cooperate when a murderer tries to kill them and things can go wrong. Add to that the fact that the Ripper was generally compelled to attack outdoors, and this murder obviously took place outdoors, where other people could interrupt his actions and you are left with a very variable crime scene. It is frankly amazing that there are the common factors that can be shown to link the crimes. Bearing this in mind, the attack on Stride is well within the meaningful paramentere that connect these crimes.

Absolutely agree -adding only the 'perhaps' the Ripper mean't to kill 2 victims that night, and the Stride murder wasn't as botched as all that.

I doubt that Lawende saw the same person as Schwartz and I doubt that Lawende saw the person known as Jack the Ripper.

Gordon Bennett ! We agree, Lechmere ! (the Earth might stop turning !).

I also doubt that either Schwartz nor Lawende were the witness talked of with regard to the Seaside Home identification. I think the whole thing was horribly garbled by desk bound senior police officers desperate to validate their careers in later life.

YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

I will repeat that the chances of two unsolved fatal throat cutting knife attacks, outside, on prostitutes within walking distance of each other and within a narrow time frame make it exceptionally unlikley that two hands were at work. These sorts of attacks were exceptionally rare.

What have you been doing this afternoon , Lechmere ? Too true, blue.

That another woman other than Eddowes was killed by a knife elsewhere on the same night does not make it anymore commonplace, quite simply as we know for an iron fact that such attacks were anything but commonplace. It means that this night was statistiaclly perverse in there being three. But the chance that three different knife attackers were out on that night are slim to say the least.

OMG -Yes, again.

The happenstance that the other, domestic, knife attack did take place that night actually makes it much less likely that Stride was murdered by a different hand to Eddowes.

Yes, true.

I don't think that pouring over hysterical witness accounts and self serving Police memoirs gets us any closer to establishing who may or who may not be the culprit, even if these are interesting things to look at for sociological reasons - connected with how the human mind corrupts the data that is fed into it by our senses.

(Do I really have to be a 'yes' woman, now ?) Yes.

As for Coles I would have to say that there is a good chance that she was kiled by the same person and I would say it should be kept on the file. On balance I think Saddler probably did it - he was very much in the frame, which makes this one quite unlike the other murders. Also to be brutally honest the Coles murder doesn't fit to my mind with being committed by my favoured suspect and so I would have to strike it out for that reason!

WDW !