A Case of Misattribution?

[lynn cates]

mind reader

Hello Dave. Again, you have read my mind.

Impressive!

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

Hi Phil

In an entirely abstract sense you're right of course...it IS a known phenomenon...but equally nobody knows for sure whether it applies or not in this case...

Some folk have their suspicions (and I have to say I can't entirely gainsay them)...equally others trust Schwartz implicitly, (which I have to say I personally have some difficulty in doing)...However, at the end of the day, there remains to us only his testimony to rely on one way or the other.



Hi Abby

I'm told by those who know me that I'm more gullible than most...I probably am...Yet I have trouble in simply accepting your unsupported statement...sorry!

Dave

I think you have it backwards. There is no evidence that he was lying so until the conspiracists come up with something then you should be directing that statement to them.

But let me ask you something. Do you really think a foreigner in a new country a conservative looking Jew with a family who does not even speak the language is going to place himself and his family in severe jeopardy and lie to the police in a murder case????

[Cogidubnus]

Open mind

All they needed to do was to have him say he came upon a man over her body with a knife who rushed passed him as he entered the yard. Simple end of suspicion on the club. Not some convoluted story with lots of strange details and two different witnesses which could easily unravel under questioning.

Of course that's true...but assuming the club conspiracy theorists are correct they had perhaps ten minutes to gather, confer, and come up with a story...If that's a fictional story and what we hear today, they did ok...I'm not actively calling it one way or the other you understand...just playing the devil's advocate...despite, and I openly admit it, being more than a trifle suspicious of Schwartz.

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

alternative

Hello Garry. Of course. And, if true, Liz was a victim of a fracas perpetrated by a drunken man.

But no one else heard this fracas and Brown was lying or mistaken.

Cheers.
LC

[Garry Wroe]

Yes and that what he saw was in no way connected to Stride or the murder

Go on then, Trev, humour me.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave,

thanks.
Again, in an abstract sense, isnt a foil used to divert attention away from two main things, place and time?
Timing here being the factor I see as the main problem.

Best wishes

Phil

[Cogidubnus]

A question. If a group of people needed a cover story to guide the police away from any percieved involvement in a crime, do they not always use a 'plant' to divert any such attention?
It isnt exactly an unknown phenomenon amongst the criminal fraternity, no?

Hi Phil

In an entirely abstract sense you're right of course...it IS a known phenomenon...but equally nobody knows for sure whether it applies or not in this case...

Some folk have their suspicions (and I have to say I can't entirely gainsay them)...equally others trust Schwartz implicitly, (which I have to say I personally have some difficulty in doing)...However, at the end of the day, there remains to us only his testimony to rely on one way or the other.

Yes which he most probably was.

Hi Abby

I'm told by those who know me that I'm more gullible than most...I probably am...Yet I have trouble in simply accepting your unsupported statement...sorry!

Dave

[Abby Normal]

Arguably, per some theorists, they did...disguising an earlier discovery of the body...

All the best

Dave

All they needed to do was to have him say he came upon a man over her body with a knife who rushed passed him as he entered the yard. Simple end of suspicion on the club. Not some convoluted story with lots of strange details and two different witnesses which could easily unravel under questioning.

[Hunter]

The bottom line with Schwartz is that, no matter how truthful his story, it could not be allowed to torpedo the 1.00 am murder-interruptus incident and "double-event" which subsequently passed into official history.

Who do you believe? Israel Schwartz or Saucy Jacky?

The police released descriptions of the men Schwartz testified that he saw on the 19th. They considered all of the evidence and possibilities of this murder. A trained detective like Swanson would have no reason to torpedo any ongoing investigation for the sake of a theory. They would have been more than happy to finger anyone for any one of these murders if they could considering the pressure they were already under.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Dave,

A question. If a group of people needed a cover story to guide the police away from any percieved involvement in a crime, do they not always use a 'plant' to divert any such attention?
It isnt exactly an unknown phenomenon amongst the criminal fraternity, no?

Given this man's indeterminate identity afterwards as well, Id say this non English speaking person was posshbly the perfect foil.

Best wishes

Phil

[Abby Normal]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?

Yes which he most probably was.

[Cogidubnus]

Why not use Diemshutz?

Arguably, per some theorists, they did...disguising an earlier discovery of the body...

All the best

Dave

[Hunter]

Who knows....maybe Israel was sent in to counter act that apron and message....they were both known of when Israel came in Sunday night.

I'm afraid they both weren't. The message was hidden from the public for some time.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lynn,

If the Schwartz story is a fiction intended to remove suspicion from members of the IWMEC, why have him witnessing only an assault? Why not, unequivocally, the murder itself? Why not say, overtly that 'it was obvious to me that the man was a Gentile', rather than simply implying it in the description?
In addition, if it would be extremely dangerous to have a Club stooge invent a story of this nature, because there would be every chance that a watching policeman would be able to disprove it. Where would that leave Israel Schwartz in the great scheme of things? Slopping out in Pentonville?

regards, Bridewell.

Exactly. Why not use Diemshutz?

[Cogidubnus]

Has it not occurred to anyone that Schwartz might have been an honest witness who simply recounted events to the best of his ability?
Quick reply to this message

Hi Garry

Yes certainly it's occurred to me, for one...and I hope I have a sufficiently open mind to continue to keep all my options open - but part of the trouble with his testimony, for my part, is that nobody else saw what he saw, nobody else even saw him at the scene...and additionally of course there are the largely unanswered questions about who he actually was, where was he moving from, and what happened to him post 1888...if some of the gaps could be filled, maybe he'd be better trusted, and less regarded as having a theatrical bent...

All the best

Dave