JTR as a disorganized schizophrenic lust murderer

[Pontius2000]

why do you think the killer was disorganised and a crazed Schitzo ? because he's definitely not somebody like Kosminski, he's more like W.Bury/ G. Chapman, i.e Evil but not insane.

Kosminski is exactly like a ``care in the community nutter`` he's as harmless as a baby, he's the type that you see wondering into A&E on a saturday afternoon, he's halucinating because he's forgotten to take his drugs and right now he's talking to the Nazareen.

this type would never be able to chat up MJK or even Eddowes/Stride, they'd see straight though him.... they'd tell him to move along! Kosminski is way too off the scale to be JTR

why JTR mutilates is not known and i wouldn't bother to think why right now, because i can not get inside the killers mind well enough to suss this out.

JTR controlls everything he does very carefully, he is totally observent of eveything that's going on around him, he lost his temper with regards to Stride, but yet again this proves how human he was.

He is also not sadistic, barbaric or hateful, like Bundy or Sutcliffe, he tries not to cause too much pain to his victims and this is very rare indeed

no one on this board is in a position to say what JTR "definitely" was or was not. and he is more likely to be someone like Kosminski than Bury or Chapman, sorry.

he's not "harmless as a baby" because he took up a knife and threatened his sister and several points of being excitable and violent while in asylums. He also didn't wander into the court in 1889 hallucinating while answering the charge for walking an unmuzzled dog, despite the fact that he already had schizophrenia.

there are also MANY cases of schizophrenic serial killers who socialize with their victims before killing them.

there is also nothing rare about a serial killer killing quickly and then doing extensive postmortem damage. in fact, this is the calling card of a lust murderer.

[Pontius2000]

So you think the Ripper simply went out with a knife and butchered the first woman who took him behind a corner...and did this repeatedly without ever being spotted in the act, or questioned into confessing...and did so repeatedly? You'll fit in with a great number of the minimalists on these boards, Mr. Pilate. They share your faith in luck and coincidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

by "repeatedly", you mean 5 times in a 3 month period. had he not died, moved, or been incarcerated he would likely have continued and been caught. he may have been caught at #6, or it may have been #20 but there is no question that JTR was very lucky and luck eventually runs out.

[lynn cates]

disambiguation

Hello Pontius. I wonder whether it would be helpful to get clear on the ways in which one may beorganised or disorganised?

Perhaps we could make a chess player's distinction between strategy and tactics.

Strategy has to do with long term planning (control of the centre of the board, developing knights before bishops, developing with a threat, trading material when ahead).

Tactics involves the short term (various combinations as knight or pawn fork, pins, and so on).

As I read the evidence, it seems to me that Polly and Annie were killed by someone strategically disorganised but tactically organised.

On the other hand, Kate and MJ seemed to succumb to one who was strategically organised but tactically disorganised.

To put it another way, it seems that Polly and Annie met their assailant randomly; but, when the time came for the knife, he knew what he was about.

Kate and MJ seemed NOT to have random encounters; but, the knife work was maladept.

See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

[Pontius2000]

Hello Pontius. I wonder whether it would be helpful to get clear on the ways in which one may beorganised or disorganised?

I took this from this website: http://www.helium.com/items/666219-o...serial-killers


Organized:
The organized offender leads an orderly life that is reflected in the way he commits his crimes. He is said to be of average to high intelligence, socially competent, and more likely than the disorganized offender to have skilled employment. In many instances, he lives with a girlfriend or is married. He may even be a father. He will plan his offense before the opportunity arises often for weeks, months, and even years before acting. He is aware of his growing compulsion to act out his murderous desire. He will typically use restraints on the victim, and bring a weapon with him, which he will then take with him when he leaves. Typically, the organized offender leaves three crime scenes: Where the victim is confronted, where the victim is killed, and where the victim's body is disposed of (Vronsky, 2004).


Disorganized:
In contrast to the organized killer, the crime scene of the disorganized offender is described as reflecting an overall sense of disorder and suggests little, if any, preplanning of the murder. He, too, is difficult to catch because while the organized offender is predictable in some way, the disorganized offender is very much not. He has vague and intense murderous fantasies, but he does not develop a thought-out plan of action. The disarray present at the crime scene may include evidence such as blood, semen, and the murder weapon. There is minimal use of retrains because the victim is usually rendered unconscious moments after encountering the disorganized offender. This is thought to be because the offender is aware of his inability to interact with the victim. The body is often displayed in open view, is usually left where the confrontation took place, and is often subjected to extraordinary mutilation. The disorganized offender is often times still living with parents or guardians, and to have a below-average intelligence. The killer is usually unemployed or unskilled, does not own a car, and kills near his home (Vronsky, 2004).

[lynn cates]

cars

Hello Pontius. Well, I like the part about no car.

Now, if only we could find a serial killer . . . .

Cheers.
LC

[Pontius2000]

Hello Pontius. Well, I like the part about no car.

Now, if only we could find a serial killer . . . .

Cheers.
LC

that was pretty much the selling point for me. If we just had enough remaining documentation to determine whether or not Kosminski had a car and a good driving record, we'd be on the trail.

[Abby Normal]

He killed a bunch of women on the street in a very gruesome way and got away with it. He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Totally agree.

[Abby Normal]

I took this from this website: http://www.helium.com/items/666219-o...serial-killers


Organized:
The organized offender leads an orderly life that is reflected in the way he commits his crimes. He is said to be of average to high intelligence, socially competent, and more likely than the disorganized offender to have skilled employment. In many instances, he lives with a girlfriend or is married. He may even be a father. He will plan his offense before the opportunity arises often for weeks, months, and even years before acting. He is aware of his growing compulsion to act out his murderous desire. He will typically use restraints on the victim, and bring a weapon with him, which he will then take with him when he leaves. Typically, the organized offender leaves three crime scenes: Where the victim is confronted, where the victim is killed, and where the victim's body is disposed of (Vronsky, 2004).


Disorganized:
In contrast to the organized killer, the crime scene of the disorganized offender is described as reflecting an overall sense of disorder and suggests little, if any, preplanning of the murder. He, too, is difficult to catch because while the organized offender is predictable in some way, the disorganized offender is very much not. He has vague and intense murderous fantasies, but he does not develop a thought-out plan of action. The disarray present at the crime scene may include evidence such as blood, semen, and the murder weapon. There is minimal use of retrains because the victim is usually rendered unconscious moments after encountering the disorganized offender. This is thought to be because the offender is aware of his inability to interact with the victim. The body is often displayed in open view, is usually left where the confrontation took place, and is often subjected to extraordinary mutilation. The disorganized offender is often times still living with parents or guardians, and to have a below-average intelligence. The killer is usually unemployed or unskilled, does not own a car, and kills near his home (Vronsky, 2004).

Hi Pontius
I think the traits that are shown in the disorganized killer definition above that are similar to JtR have more to do with the circumstances at the time in that the killer did not have a car or perhaps even a private residence.

[Pontius2000]

Hi Pontius
I think the traits that are shown in the disorganized killer definition above that are similar to JtR have more to do with the circumstances at the time in that the killer did not have a car or perhaps even a private residence.

of course he did not have a car. the fact that he took organs away from 3 victims points to the probability that he DID have a private or semi-private residence.

the main differences between the two are crime scenes, not car or residence.

[K-453]

How much worth is preparation and planning when Jack is killing in streets where somebody could turn around the corner at any time, and under windows where somebody could peep out at any time?

He just could not plan what would happen around him while he was commiting his crimes. He only could make educated guesses - and keep his senses wide open.

To me, it looks like he relied more on his instincts than on his intelligence. He was not dumb, but subordinated intelligence to instincts.

I read in a book serial killers with intelligence higher than average are caught after four years, but serial killers with intelligence below average are caught after eight years. This being average values.

Intelligence only complicates things.

Remember how smart 'dumb' people can be. They easily outwit very bright persons with university education. Children outwit adults. It has something to do with qualms, with rather watching a person than listening to his or her words, and with thinking of the nearest future only instead of long-term planning.

Modern cities are populated by wild animals, who find a comfortable hunting ground there. Most of these animals are never seen by the thousands of humans living there! One should think it is impossible, but they find niches to hide away, and they know exactly when the coast is clear.

[Abby Normal]

of course he did not have a car. the fact that he took organs away from 3 victims points to the probability that he DID have a private or semi-private residence.

the main differences between the two are crime scenes, not car or residence.

The perpatrators specific circumstances of time and place will obviously affect how to assess a crime scene and those descriptions probably dont take into account circumstances of 100 years ago.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd say more like A LOT of luck with the main preparation being that he had a weapon on him for when the opportunity may present itself.

I'd agree that he didn't need to have had much planning about him at all.

I think there was always a good chance of him getting away with it, based on the context of police procedure being in its infancy.

Look at the Yorkshire Ripper, nearly 100 years on and the police struggled to catch him after 13.

Jack would more or less have had to have been caught red handed, which suggests that actually he would have been unlucky to have been caught.

[Pontius2000]

The perpatrators specific circumstances of time and place will obviously affect how to assess a crime scene and those descriptions probably dont take into account circumstances of 100 years ago.

organized killers in those days were able to kill and dispose of bodies in private (ie, the torso murders) just like they do in modern times (ala Ted Bundy). So I don't agree that he may have only appeared in part to be disorganized because of his circumstances when it's clear that organized killer(s) were at work at the very same time and area that he was operating in.

[robhouse]

Several aspects of the Ripper crimes suggest a lust murderer, probably one who was mostly disorganized (for what its worth). The mutilation targeting the sexual organs, evisceration and taking of organs (and probable cannibalism) are hallmarks of a lust murderer (post-mortem mutilator.) And in many cases, serial killers like this are schizophrenic.

[Abby Normal]

organized killers in those days were able to kill and dispose of bodies in private (ie, the torso murders) just like they do in modern times (ala Ted Bundy). So I don't agree that he may have only appeared in part to be disorganized because of his circumstances when it's clear that organized killer(s) were at work at the very same time and area that he was operating in.

Hi Pontius
The problem with that is that both JtR and Torso murders are unsolved, meaning we have no idea if they were by the same person, which is where these goofy categories of "organized" or "disorganized" can be totally misleading by trying to dump a killer into one or the other.

You bring up Ted Bundy- his crimes were mainly "organized" but some of his attacks in the beginning and mainly his attacks at the end in FL (the murders in the Chi Omega sorority and a nearby apartment) would be classic "disorganized" category. If Bundy was never caught and these crimes remained unsolved, one might mistakenly think based on the categories that they were from two different killers.

You see serial killers can show signs of both categories at the same time (JtR) and even one category one time and the other at a different time (Bundy). Which by the way you failed to mention the FBI has a third category along with organized and disorganized labeled "Mixed"-showing traits of both-hows that for ambiguous?

I would not place too much faith in these overly broad, vague and outdated categories when trying to match them up with specific killers. If you must label JtR, the best one would probably be Hedonistic Lust Killer (Holmes, Holmes, DeBurger.)