Kosminski & Schwartz

[JTRSickert]

Hi Everyone,

I have been doing speculating recently concerning the debate about whether Schwartz was the witness who Anderson alleges picked out a Jewish suspect but wouldn't testify against him in court since he didn't want another Jew's death on his hands. Here is something that has come to my mind recently though. First of all, both Kosminski and Schwartz both could not speak any English, at least not fluently. Kosminski could only speak Polish and maybe some Yiddish. Schwartz could only speak Hungarian and also maybe some Yiddish (I can't say for certain if either of them could speak Yiddish but I do know many Jewish immigrants spoke this language in the East End in order to socialize with each other). Now, that being said, let us assume that, for the sake of argument, that Schwartz is in fact the witness whom Anderson is referring to and let's say that Kosminski is the man that he saw with Liz Stride that night. So, if Kosminski was in fact the man that attacked Stride, then prior to the attack, they probably were not conversing in English, since Kosminski did not speak English and Liz Stride did know some Yiddish, we would have to assume that they were maybe conversing in Yiddish prior to the attack. Now, if Schwartz was himself fluent in some Yiddish (again I am merely speculating this; I can't say if he was or not), wouldn't he have picked up a little bit more of the conversation between Stride & Kosminski other than "Lipski" being yelled out to him. Another thing is this...if we assume that the attacker (in this scenario, Kosminski) did in fact yell out "Lipski" and it was aimed at Schwartz and not to Pipeman across the street, then why would he, a Jew, yell out an anti-Semetic slur towards Schwartz, another fellow Jew who was said to have a "very Jewish-looking" appearance? Again, this is merely a scenario but one must take these questions into account if Kosminski was, in fact, the attacker and Schwartz was the witness.

[Chris]

Aaron Kozminski could speak English, as shown by the reports of his appearance in court in December 1889.

[JTRSickert]

One other thing, do we know what Aaron's physical description was like at the time (or at any time) and if so, does his description match that of Schwartz's statement about Broad-Shouldered man?

[lynn cates]

conversation

Hello JTRS. Given the veracity of Schwartz's story, I would wonder about the timing of Liz's and Kosminski's conversation. If Kosminski were BS man, it seems that any conversation would be brief as the "tugging match" seems to have erupted right after their initial contact.

Perhaps they were chatting earlier in a pub? Is that your take?

Cheers.
LC

[JTRSickert]

Hi Lynn,

What I meant was, if Schwartz was walking down the street at the same time that liz was assaulted, odds are some words exchanged prior to or during the attack. I mean, I've seen doemstic squabbles get physical and in usually every case, a good deal of yelling and shouting is done during this time. Now, Schwartz couldn't speak much English so he probably wouldn't have been able to grasp the context of the words being spoken (if there were any) during the attack, but he picks up on "Lipski." it also causes me to wonder if that was, in fact, what he had heard spoken or if it what was he interpreted that he thought he heard that night.

[lynn cates]

try this

Hello JTRS. If I follow you, perhaps you are suggesting that Kosminski began arguing with Liz and straightaway said something like, "I'll do to you what Lipski did." Then IS thought it was said to him or PM?

Something like that?

Cheers.
LC

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Everyone,
if we assume that the attacker (in this scenario, Kosminski) did in fact yell out "Lipski" and it was aimed at Schwartz and not to Pipeman across the street, then why would he, a Jew, yell out an anti-Semetic slur towards Schwartz, another fellow Jew who was said to have a "very Jewish-looking" appearance?

maybe because you have immunity when you are one yourself, and mostly because people in minority call eachother by with birds names as a game or in a sarcadtic way, like black people call eachothers "******s", even between friends, or just like my brother and myself call eachother "sand-******" or "hook-nose". even people from the gay community tend to call one another "fag" or so.

[Sister Hyde]

and i don't think this phenomene is just new, my grandmother often told me about how her mother used to call her man "stronzo gitano" just to tease him, and this back in the 30's (in her first memories)

[sleekviper]

Well the "N" word is a power word, it has one direct meaning. As with any power word, it can be used to mock it's original intend when others understand how the deviation has transformed. For instance, two people can pass an extremely ugly dog, and one may comment "that is a real beauty", clearly mocking the looks of the animal. Schwartz, is acting on a non-power word as if it were. The situation would first appear to me to have the same effect as yelling "Simpson!" after the O.J. Simpson murder trial. I would assume that the other person in the area holds that name, especially if it is said once. Schwartz automatically goes into fear and flight mode, bypassing the thought that it may have been a name.

[Chris]

Aaron Kozminski could speak English, as shown by the reports of his appearance in court in December 1889.

And I see you posted the same statement verbatim on jtrforums.com five days later, and had the same thing pointed out. Odd.

[Versa]

maybe because you have immunity when you are one yourself, and mostly because people in minority call eachother by with birds names as a game or in a sarcadtic way, like black people call eachothers "******s", even between friends, or just like my brother and myself call eachother "sand-******" or "hook-nose". even people from the gay community tend to call one another "fag" or so.

These would tend to be people that are familiar with each other though and understand that the term is mean in a jesting, teasing way.

This situation was different and the term was meant to be derogatory.... Schwartz certainly didn't take it as a friendly utterance as he claimed to have felt afraid and ran off....

[Versa]

.if we assume that the attacker (in this scenario, Kosminski) did in fact yell out "Lipski" and it was aimed at Schwartz and not to Pipeman across the street, then why would he, a Jew, yell out an anti-Semetic slur towards Schwartz, another fellow Jew who was said to have a "very Jewish-looking" appearance?

I agree this does seem strange and unlikely that a jew would of shouted a racial slur at another jew. Its possible that it was another word that was taken by Schwartz to be Lipski....



Added to which the description furnished by Schwartz doesn't seem to fit with a person of Jewish appearance (although not all people of Jewish extraction look 'jewish')

[GregBaron]

Koz shouting Lipski...! That's BS...

Hi,

Koz could speak English as pointed out by those in the know. And no, we don’t have a physical description unless possibly by the cop Sagar who was tracking somebody of whom he gives a cursory description. Without looking, I think he said dark curly hair, dark mustache, 5’7” which only covers about 100,000 dudes in Whitechapel. Anway, I doubt BS was Kosminski or the ripper for that matter. My take is all of the actors left the stage when the murderer crept from the back of Dutfields yard and snagged his prey. A drunken brawling screamer hardly fits the stealth M.O. of the other murders. Pure speculation of course. If the killer is BS man this could also lend credence to the idea this wasn’t the ripper anyway…Just some thoughts…


Greg

[Errata]

Having some familiarity with Polish, Hungarian, and Yiddish (I can't speak any of them, but recognize them when spoken) The way a native Londoner from Whitechapel or the surrounds would pronounce the word "Lipski" is quite different than from how someone with a Polish or Hungarian accent would pronounce it. If someone with a Polish accent said it, Shwartz should have recognized the accent. Even though Hungarian is a different language, they both would have spoken the same dialect of Yiddish, which has the same accent as Polish.

Something like the difference between "LIP-skee" for Brits and "LEEP-skee" for Poles and Hungarians. It's a bit of an oversimplification, but I can't really describe it. Typically, when recounting something someone said in a different language, we tend to try and mimic the accent. I think if Schwartz and his translator said "LIP-skee" clearly enough that the officer taking the statement didn't have to try an nail down exactly what it was they were trying to say, then Schwartz heard it in a British accent.

[Wickerman]

This situation was different and the term was meant to be derogatory.... Schwartz certainly didn't take it as a friendly utterance as he claimed to have felt afraid and ran off....

Hi Versa.
There's no mention of the expression, "Lipski" in the press report. In fact the 'shout' is said to have come from the man who suddenly appeared out of the Beershop doorway, "and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman"
Regardless, even in the police report Schwartz only walked away after hearing the 'shout'. It was the other man following him that made Schwartz start running, but this appears a little confused. Schwartz must have percieved more of a threat than what is being described.

Regards, Jon S.