discussion of Aaron Kosminski's psychological profile

[GregBaron]

Stop doing that...

Hi Versa and Robert,

I do think they used the term 'self-abuse' when Koz was incarcerated. One wonders why they called it abuse when it's supposed to feel good. I guess the Victorian motto was 'if it feels good don't do it'...

Perhaps they didn't have a term for 'self-harm' because the media hadn't yet promoted it....


Greg

[Robert]

Sorry, forgot about Jacob Cohen. I think though that the solitary vices reference makes it clear what was going on.

[Robert]

Hi Greg

Our posts crossed. I have just now corrected myself, as Murray Walker might have said.

[Errata]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Aaron Kozminski was 25 at the time when Dr Houchin recorded his symptoms.

I think I may have a different Birth date that would put him at 24, which my math was based off of.

My thinking was this: If Kosminski was 24 at the time of institutionalization, and that was in 1894 (which could also be wrong) that would make him about 18 at the time of the murders. According to some admittedly slightly outdated books, only 40% of schizophrenics are symptomatic by 19. But I realize statistics are one thing and the real world another, so I was curious as to how surprising it would be to someone who works in the profession.

And if it was surprising, does that mean we have to try and scale back the symptoms to something more age appropriate, or alter the perceived diagnosis? In other words, how many of the symptoms described in 1894 are likely to be present 6 years earlier?

On a somewhat tangential note, it would be nice if the numbers existed as to how much time families spent with the mentally ill before institutionalizing them. Given the attitudes of the day, 6 years with a full blown schizophrenic seems like an extraordinarily long time.

[Errata]

I would however quite happily rule out Bi-polar as what we do have indicates very classic Schizophrenia and none of the classic signs of Bi-Polar. In other words we're looking at a psychosis with labile affect (changeable mood) rather than an affective disorder with psychotic elements.

Well, as someone who has Bipolar and is marrying someone with Bipolar and spent a lot of time with other Bipolar kids, I have to agree.

Not that Bipolar people can't be violent, but I think we'd make terrible serial killers. Spree killers sure, but not serial killers. Unmedicated we pretty much have no ability to pursue long term goals.

[Chris]

I think I may have a different Birth date that would put him at 24, which my math was based off of.

My thinking was this: If Kosminski was 24 at the time of institutionalization, and that was in 1894 (which could also be wrong) that would make him about 18 at the time of the murders. According to some admittedly slightly outdated books, only 40% of schizophrenics are symptomatic by 19. But I realize statistics are one thing and the real world another, so I was curious as to how surprising it would be to someone who works in the profession.

Thanks to Rob's researches we know he was born on 11 September 1865, so he turned 23 in the Autumn of 1888, and was 25 when Houchin recorded his symptoms on 6 February 1891.

[Versa]

Hi Versa

I don't recall the term "self-abuse" cropping up in connection with Aaron. Macnaghten's "many years' indulgence in solitary vices" makes it clear that it was masturbation that was meant.

Thanks for clearing that up, I'd got confused somewhere in the thread I thought that the term had been used in connection with Kosminsky

Of course, if practised excessively this might cause physical damage of some sort.
"They say harm can come to a young lad like that."

I think blindness is a big risk

[Robert]

Hi Versa

No, I corrected myself after. The term was used, but I think it meant "masturbation."

[Versa]

According to some admittedly slightly outdated books, only 40% of schizophrenics are symptomatic by 19.

The term 'symptomatic' might mean anything really, the person could of been displaying symptoms such as becoming withdrawn, isolating them selves etc or more distressing symptoms may be present....

And if it was surprising, does that mean we have to try and scale back the symptoms to something more age appropriate, or alter the perceived diagnosis? In other words, how many of the symptoms described in 1894 are likely to be present 6 years earlier?

My personal feeling is that Aaron was a 'slow onset, long lasting' Schizophrenic, lots of people that develop very severe symptoms (such as Aaron) do very well at school both academically and socially maybe even holding down a job for a couple of years 18-24 would be when I'd expect people outside the family to notice things.

I haven't read through all Aaron's notes (yet)but I would imagine that he would be displaying 'odd' behaviour in public by 18-24ish but I couldn't say to what degree atm (and dependant on his notes might not be able to ever)

On a somewhat tangential note, it would be nice if the numbers existed as to how much time families spent with the mentally ill before institutionalizing them. Given the attitudes of the day, 6 years with a full blown schizophrenic seems like an extraordinarily long time.

I wouldn't imagine that his behaviour would make him too difficult to live with initially but every person is different and the illness can manifest to varying degrees in different people.... Also a Jewish or even working class family might be less inclined to have a family member placed in an institution due to either the stigma or concerns for their welfare in the institution. Many families kept these things quiet and did their best to care for the family member until it really did become impossible.

If he's just responding to voices (auditory hallucinations) or occasionally watching something that isn't there (visual hallucinations) then he might be perfectly easy to live with.

If he's paranoid and/or delusional then that would depend to some extent on what he was paranoid about and to what degree...

For example if he was paranoid that his sister was trying to poison him (a common example) then he might become more difficult to live with depending on whether he voiced his concerns or kept them quiet and just refused food cooked by her.

If for example he was delusional and paranoid that blue men from the moon where after him when he was out but felt safe at home then he might not be difficult to live with, on the other hand if the paranoia meant that he was barricading doors or thought that his sister was a blue man from the moon in disguise then again he would be more difficult to live with!

So its all down to the individuals delusions etc not necessarily the behaviour of a person with schizophrenia.

Hope that all made sense

[Versa]

Hi Versa

No, I corrected myself after. The term was used, but I think it meant "masturbation."

Ah ok

Personally I'm undecided yet whether the term self-abuse was meant in the sexual way or if it meant self-harm or self-injury... I need to read his notes as if that term coincides with periods in which he is displaying more negative symptoms (poor hygiene, apathy etc) I might be more inclined to believe it referred to his injuring himself.

The reason this is of interest to me is that a person that self harms is one that turns their anger/hatred in on themselves and tends to be less inclined to harm others. Obviously that would might us some more insight into Aaron's personality type.

[Versa]

Perhaps they didn't have a term for 'self-harm' because the media hadn't yet promoted it....

Hi,

Self harm was about even prior to the more recent explosion in people self harming. I'm just not sure what terminology was used by the staff at the time and self-abuse seems like a possible term.

Its possible that the term was then applied to masturbation at a later date but I really don't know....

[Robert]

Hi Versa

Interesting idea. However I would have thought that when the cause of Aaron's illness was changed from "unknown" to "self-abuse," that would have reflected Victorian belief in masturbation as a cause of mental illness (which is silly) rather than physical self-harm as a cause of mental illness (which is less silly but not the kind of cause that would leap to mind). Someone who, say, stabs himself in the arm every so often or sticks pins in himself, might drive himself into a bad mental state but it seems to me less likely that this is what was meant. The Victorians probably would have seen self-harm as a symptom of mental illness rather than a cause, as indeed they should have seen excessive masturbation.

[Versa]

Hi Versa

Interesting idea. However I would have thought that when the cause of Aaron's illness was changed from "unknown" to "self-abuse," that would have reflected Victorian belief in masturbation as a cause of mental illness (which is silly) rather than physical self-harm as a cause of mental illness (which is less silly but not the kind of cause that would leap to mind). Someone who, say, stabs himself in the arm every so often or sticks pins in himself, might drive himself into a bad mental state but it seems to me less likely that this is what was meant. The Victorians probably would have seen self-harm as a symptom of mental illness rather than a cause, as indeed they should have seen excessive masturbation.

Hi,

lol Ive just started a thread about the possible meaning of the term (so as not to derail this thread or have the discussion lost) and your answer here does sound reasonable... I'm unsure atm what the Victorian view of self harm was?

[Errata]

So its all down to the individuals delusions etc not necessarily the behaviour of a person with schizophrenia.

Hope that all made sense

It does. And you are of course right.

My feeling that five or six years would be a long time was based on the idea that after becoming symptomatic, Aaron would be unable to work. Even if he was technically able, I don't think the family could afford an incident in public. They were a lower income family (though middle income by Whitechapel standards), and would not be able to afford the series of fines a delusional schizophrenic would eventually rack up from the police and hospitals. They would have to try and contain him. And that means they would be supporting a non-productive family member who clearly engaged in unusual behavior in public, and went missing from time to time.

I mean, your elderly mother who you support and has no income is at least not periodically in the streets masturbating or eating food out of gutters (one fervently hopes). With Kosminski, it would not just be about tolerating his behavior, but also financially supporting him. It's why I think that most families of the mentally ill would have institutionalized them much earlier. They literally could not afford to care for someone they could not control. The Kosminskis would not have been able to afford it either, so it seems he must have been comparatively problem free for a long time. And on his intake the family friend said that he had been ill for at least five years.

It certainly argues for a slow onset like you say, despite the environmental factors that could have seriously ramped up the deterioration. And I don't know what it means, except that it doesn't seem to go with the idea that he was a psycho killer three years before institutionalization.

[Errata]

Hi,

Self harm was about even prior to the more recent explosion in people self harming. I'm just not sure what terminology was used by the staff at the time and self-abuse seems like a possible term.

Its possible that the term was then applied to masturbation at a later date but I really don't know....

I have a book from the 20s that refers to it as being "self injurious", but it is in reference to a guy beating his head against a wall, not cutting.