discussion of Aaron Kosminski's psychological profile

[The Good Michael]

Of course, not at all universal. And many Polish Jews fled Russia. But I think if I were to try and describe Kosminski, I would lean more Germanic, less Slavic.

Slavs were light and related to Germans originally. After the rise of the Turkic people who mixed with Asians to become Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Uighur, and a lot of other groups, the became a bit darker. Still, plenty of light Slavs in Poland.

Mike

[Errata]

Slavs were light and related to Germans originally. After the rise of the Turkic people who mixed with Asians to become Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Uighur, and a lot of other groups, the became a bit darker. Still, plenty of light Slavs in Poland.

Mike

Awesome. You know this stuff. Cause I'm reaching from Sunday school like, 18 years ago. Do I mean Slavs? There is an injection of possibly Egyptian, certainly Persian into south eastern Europe (probably during the Byzantine Empire). It creates the Romani, and when mixed with the Turkic and Huns in Kazakhstan and surrounds results in smaller, darker Russians rather than the giant blond bears of Russian mythology. Sort of Stalin or Lenin vs. Brezhnev or That guy from Rocky 4

Is that Slavic? In cheesy spy novels it's referred to as "Slavic looks" or whatever, but is it?

[GregBaron]

Photos of Koz look-alikes....

Hi all,

I trolled the internet looking for a Kozminski look alike. I know it's crazy but I'm going on Sagar's vague description and just trying to find some East End Jews of that time. I found a cool website and some nice photos if anyone wants to see....I'm sure some of you have probably seen such sites but I hadn't.....anyway, sorry this is huge but you can see it better this way..at least with me not having photoshop available.....anyway, I think this fellow may be the ripper......Ha Ha..a bit well dressed perhaps but Koz could have looked something like this.....at least before he began eating from the gutters...........Let me know if anyone wants the Jewish website URL..............

Greg

[ChrisGeorge]

Too big Greg. Maybe you could get admin to resize it?

C

[GregBaron]

Resize...

Yeah Chris I might play with it later.....I found a neat
site with Jewish East End photos........


Greg

[GregBaron]

Jewish photos...

Rather than spend time playing with photoshop I'll just provide the links..........below is a very interesting Jewish website..........

http://www.jeecs.org.uk/events3.html

And some very nice photos from Spitalfields etc...I noticed a Cohen out here maybe we can find a Kozminski relative?

http://www.jeecs.org.uk/photoexhibition.html

Greg

[JtRMordke]

Thank you those links Greg! That is what I expected the immigrant Jews to look like, and interestingly enough, it seems that a fair deal of the adults have resorted to just a moustache, which is what Kozminski would have worn if he is indeed the Ripper. From a source which came from a police account in shadowing a suspect whom upon analysis appears to be Kosminski, we are given perhaps the only existing description of him. He was described as being 5 foot 6 with short, black, curly hair. This gives us little however, and we cannot even be 100% sure that this description is of Aaron, but there is a high possibility that it is.

[GregBaron]

The Jews are the Men..........

Thanks JtRMordke...I found those photos very intriquing.........especially those of the exact time frame of which we are interested. I don't find much that really sets these Jews apart......maybe dark hair and dark mustaches..........not much beyond that......most of the clothing seems somewhat commonplace except for the rather dapper fellow in the chemists shop...The comedians probably fit the stereotypical Jewish look.........I imagine accent was more of a giveaway than anything else.....


Greg

[JtRMordke]

I think that's the only think we can expect from Aaron and hope that he holds that typical look, which in all respect he did, and if we are to take the description seriously then there is clear indication that he did resemble this. But yes, the accent would have been a darn good give away, especially since quite a few of the witnesses who only saw the Ripper from behind noted that he looked like a foreigner, suggesting that this was either determined by either his accent (most likely) or the judgement was based on racist speculation. As you pointed out and what is clear about the photos is that Jewish immigrants dressed more or less the same as any old man walking round Whitechapel, regardless or religion or ethnicity.

[Versa]

Hi,

Interesting thread although I do disagree with the OP's diagnosis of BPD and Kosmiskys candidacy for JtR is debatable for me.

One thing that struck me from the earlier posts was the idea that a patient in Colney Hatch would necessarily be 'free to roam about', Colney Hatch was a large hospital and like others of its ilk would of had secure wards. Many of the old asylums held patients considered to be dangerous or who had committed violent offences it wasn't the sole preserve of Broadmoor Hospital.

I also feel compelled to point out that 2 noted instances of aggression towards others is a very low instance of violence (even if we double that to account for the missing years), I've nursed people who committed 20-40 instances of violence towards other patients and/or staff in one shift!


His bouts of what your terming mania to me at least would be him exhibiting some of the more florid symptoms of schizophrenia. A person who is suffering a particularly florid episode might act in a 'manic' or more correctly 'agitated' manner. People with Schizophrenia are subject to variable affect just like anyone else. His poor hygiene is also another classic symptom of the negative symptoms of Schizophrenia and again there will be fluctuations in the severity of the negative symptoms over time.

He was also delusional and exhibited a classic in the field of psychiatry and that is fear of his food being contaminated and causing him to seek what he probably considered 'clean food' from the gutter.

On a side note while it is perfectly in fitting with someone with schizophrenia to masturbate excessively (yes I know what studies say but excessive masturbation is very common in severe cases of Schizophrenia as is sexual promiscuity) MIGHT the term 'self abuse' be 'self harm'? I'm not aware what term was used to describe self harm in the late 1880's.

[Marlowe]

Copper and dopamine excess...maybe.


Marlowe

[Errata]

He was also delusional and exhibited a classic in the field of psychiatry and that is fear of his food being contaminated and causing him to seek what he probably considered 'clean food' from the gutter.

On a side note while it is perfectly in fitting with someone with schizophrenia to masturbate excessively (yes I know what studies say but excessive masturbation is very common in severe cases of Schizophrenia as is sexual promiscuity) MIGHT the term 'self abuse' be 'self harm'? I'm not aware what term was used to describe self harm in the late 1880's.

So, in your tenure with taking care of the mentally ill, would you be surprised to learn that someone with such a severity of symptoms as Kosminski was only 18? And if so would it change your assessment? Would you keep it in the Schizophrenia family, or would you think it would have to be some other disorder that shows symptoms earlier than Schizophrenia?

[Chris]

So, in your tenure with taking care of the mentally ill, would you be surprised to learn that someone with such a severity of symptoms as Kosminski was only 18? And if so would it change your assessment? Would you keep it in the Schizophrenia family, or would you think it would have to be some other disorder that shows symptoms earlier than Schizophrenia?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but Aaron Kozminski was 25 at the time when Dr Houchin recorded his symptoms.

[Versa]

So, in your tenure with taking care of the mentally ill, would you be surprised to learn that someone with such a severity of symptoms as Kosminski was only 18? And if so would it change your assessment? Would you keep it in the Schizophrenia family, or would you think it would have to be some other disorder that shows symptoms earlier than Schizophrenia?

No I wouldn't be that surprised, Schizophrenia can and often does appear in late teens, the negative symptoms (apathy etc) tend to be less with teenagers, however Schizophrenia that occurs in late teens often 'burns out' fairly quickly, some people might experience a few months of illness others a couple of years, sometimes leaving the person quite developmentally damaged (poor social skills, emotionally immature etc) but sometimes the person makes a complete recovery.

Whether or not you want to 'label' this as a different illness isn't my place to debate and the only reason in my experience that the diagnosis may be deferred when it comes to a teenager is due to the social stigma and the impact a diagnosis of schizophrenia can have on someone, this 'labelling' is avoided where possible with a teenager in an attempt to avoid further impact on their lives if possible.

If however the person was in their early 20's when they first showed signs of Schizophrenia the symptoms both negative and positive would be much more likely to remain quite florid throughout the persons life in varying degrees (worse some weeks than others) and the negative symptoms tend to become more life impacting, delusions become more 'set'.

Having said all that I've nursed some very, very poorly teenagers some of whom have gone on to live very productive 'normal' lives and others who have remained 'revolving door patients' all their lives and never made a good recovery or been well for any length of time.

There's a general rule of thumb that a teenager developing Schizophrenia will make a better recovery than a person that develops it from their 20's onwards but like anything there are always exceptions to the rule.

I also don't think at all that we can in any way pace a more specific diagnosis on a person for whom we have a few sparse notes from 120yrs ago. Its possible that schizo-affective could be a diagnosis but we don't have the information to make that sort of diagnosis.

I would however quite happily rule out Bi-polar as what we do have indicates very classic Schizophrenia and none of the classic signs of Bi-Polar. In other words we're looking at a psychosis with labile affect (changeable mood) rather than an affective disorder with psychotic elements.

I was under the impression though that Kosminsky was considered somewhat older than 18?
I still wonder if the term 'self abuse' be referring to 'self harm'?

[Robert]

Hi Versa

I don't recall the term "self-abuse" cropping up in connection with Aaron. Macnaghten's "many years' indulgence in solitary vices" makes it clear that it was masturbation that was meant.

Of course, if practised excessively this might cause physical damage of some sort.
"They say harm can come to a young lad like that."