discussion of Aaron Kosminski's psychological profile

[JtRMordke]

Yes, I do recall many of the witnesses stating that he seemed like a foreigner. I also remember that many of them saw him with his back turned, so maybe they were commenting on his accent rather than looks in this respect? The main problem I have with Aaron really is his age, but the only counter arguments I can think of to that are either the witnesses' judgement was hindered by the dark when they would have sighted him or he somehow looked older than he was. One of the witnesses, Schwartz I believe, described him as retaining a full face, possibly slightly chubby from alcohol I can imagine, so could this make him appear older? There is an all possibility that Aaron's condition was rather well off prior to his 'burn out' since what we know about the Kozminski family tells us that they weren't doing badly supporting a tailoring business.

Personally I am under little indication that Kozminski was Isaac Kozminski, but they are interesting theories that certainly cannot be discredited.

[GregBaron]

Difficult to determine age...

The Isacc theory is intriguing but Rob pointed out that there’s no evidence he was related to Aaron and his family JtRMordke. Your point about age is well taken. You have a guy with a hat and a mustache like all guys had and a jacket in the semi-darkness. It’s very difficult in this situation to tell a 20 year old from a 40 year old. The problem with the ripper descriptions is we don’t know for sure that anyone really saw him. I think Lawende probably did and I think it’s a good possibility that Mrs. Long did too. Now Lawende wouldn’t describe a dude as foreign because he was foreign; ie, a Polish Jew. Another good point is how did Mrs. Long determine he was foreign if she only saw him from behind? Did foreigners wear different jackets or hats? Did she sneak a peak at his face as she walked by and see non Anglican features? If she did she didn’t mention it at the inquest. So you may be right, maybe she heard a bit of broken English? If our man is Koz, I wonder what kind of get ups he might have been able to come up with in his tailor making family situation?


Greg

[Dr. John Watson]

Just a quick question here for the Kosminski group: Has anyone actively searched for a photograph of Kosminski? A number of photographs of a one-time Ripper suspect - Isenschmidt - have been discovered, taken while he was an inmate at the hospital - I don't recall if it was Colney Hatch. It appears to have been routine to photograph inmates for identification purposes, so it would seem likely that photos of Kosminski may exist somewhere.

Curious John

[Chris]

Just a quick question here for the Kosminski group: Has anyone actively searched for a photograph of Kosminski? A number of photographs of a one-time Ripper suspect - Isenschmidt - have been discovered, taken while he was an inmate at the hospital - I don't recall if it was Colney Hatch. It appears to have been routine to photograph inmates for identification purposes, so it would seem likely that photos of Kosminski may exist somewhere.

We've actively searched for all the records of any kind we can find concerning Aaron Kozminski. Unfortunately there is no trace of a photograph. One can never say it's impossible, but I think it's very unlikely that a photograph will be found now.

[Errata]

The main problem I have with Aaron really is his age, but the only counter arguments I can think of to that are either the witnesses' judgement was hindered by the dark when they would have sighted him or he somehow looked older than he was.

A question I have, in sort of a round-about way, is if people were just weirder back then?

Whitechapel is not a huge area. I think it is safe to say that barring purely residential streets, a resident of Whitechapel has at least passed through every other area of Whitechapel. Which begs a question.

There is a man who never bathes, eats out of the gutters, is vocally delusional, and compulsively masturbates who roams the streets of Whitechapel. Now given the fear which the average person had for the mad, I can't imagine that most people a: would not notice him and b: would let him get near them. And surely there is no way that a prostitute would service him, even if he had money (which he very well may not have). And let's face it, once you've seen a man eating trash while masturbating in the street, it doesn't really matter how sane he may appear a few weeks later. You wouldn't talk to him.

Given all of this, the only way I can imagine a prostitute leading a man who she has seen as mad into a secluded spot is if that kind of behavior was so commonplace, there is little chance of her remembering one such lunatic out of many. And I'm open to it. I can think of any number of environmental or professional factors that would mimic or create insanity, and clearly the mad from all other economic strata would land in a Whitechapel like area eventually. But there isnt any mention of swarms of insane people roving the streets. So I wonder.

[Chris]

Errata

As has been said before, though, the symptoms you refer to were described early in 1891, nearly two and a half years after the murders. And of course there's nothing to suggest Aaron Kozminski ever "masturbated in the street." All we have is a statement that he "practises self-abuse."

[JtRMordke]

It's a shame that nobody has come across a photograph of him. I would have very much liked to see what he looked like, and so would a lot of people I know. I hope one turns up, but like you said, the possibility is very slim. *Insane thought of digging up Kozminski's grave and constructing the face muscles*
Back to all seriousness...

Hi Chris and Errata!
Like Chris just pointed out before I got in there, we have no idea how Kozminski acted during the years including and prior to 1888. Therefore the fixed and rather off-putting image we are given of Kozminski for his incarceration was probably taken at a critically severe point in his illness. If Kozminski had been acting just as bad earlier, there is no doubt that his family would have locked him up sooner.
And your point about Whitechapel and its people; I would imagine that since it was a crowded, impoverished district filled with immigrants and god knows what else, walking round dirty and dishevelled was a common sight around those areas. But since we have relatively little idea of his state, maybe Aaron was appearance-wise more normal back in the days and was quite able to hook onto prostitutes?

[GregBaron]

Photo of anyone?

I wonder if there are any photos of any Kominski family members? Perhaps from his sisters we might get some idea of his features, at least as far as coloring. I found it amusing that some software recreator came up with an image of JTR that someone observed looked like Freddie Mercury. For you youngsters out there - Freddie was the lead singer of a band called Queen. Anyway, Freddie was of Zoroastrian Persian persuasion and whether an Eastern European Jew might resemble Freddie is open to conjecture. I guess we could look at Lawende and surmise that Koz could bear a resemblance in the sense of coming from a similar gene pool. That’s about the best we can do right now. For some reason I feel certain he didn’t look like Robert Plant, Mick Jagger or Meatloaf.


Greg

[Errata]

I found it amusing that some software recreator came up with an image of JTR that someone observed looked like Freddie Mercury. For you youngsters out there - Freddie was the lead singer of a band called Queen. Anyway, Freddie was of Zoroastrian Persian persuasion and whether an Eastern European Jew might resemble Freddie is open to conjecture.

Greg

My dad is an eastern European Jew and thought Freddie Mercury was Italian. I always thought he looked terribly British. On the other hand, my Italian friend thought he was Latin American, and thought my dad was Greek. So I'm pretty sure the whole geographical phenotype idea is pretty much out the window. Or that Freddie Mercury somehow transcended it. One of the two.

[JtRMordke]

I wonder too. There's bound to be some reference to the Kozminskis in photographs somewhere, but that would need more digging through the archives and there is no guarantee. At least then, like you said, we could get some indication as to what features run in the family and build a shaky picture of Aaron. I thought the alleged photo fit was quite amusing also - And that is exactly what I thought when I first saw the recreation! xD Personally, I don’t think they have JtR quite right there, but I guess it all depends on the person really and what they think somebody of that race should look like. For example, lots of people say I look typically Swedish (I do take my characteristics from that side) while others think I look completely British.

[Errata]

Personally, I don’t think they have JtR quite right there, but I guess it all depends on the person really and what they think somebody of that race should look like. For example, lots of people say I look typically Swedish (I do take my characteristics from that side) while others think I look completely British.

I constantly ran afoul of 19 skinheads who think I'm trying to "pass" as christian because I am a blonde green eyed Jewish girl.

The irony is that as best as I can tell, a majority of Polish Jews do not look like "Eastern European Jews". Their complexion is lighter, they appear less hirsute, the stereotypical nose is less prominent... Russian Jews, Hungarian Jews, Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian, these have the stereotypical look, owing to greater amounts of Asian ancestry. Poland evidently has enough Germanic stock to look different.

Of course, not at all universal. And many Polish Jews fled Russia. But I think if I were to try and describe Kosminski, I would lean more Germanic, less Slavic.

[GregBaron]

Guessing game...

I think you were right earlier Errata when you suggested we were skating on thin ice trying to guess Koz’s looks by his ethnicity. It’s kind of a fun game but nothing more. Sometimes an entire family looks alike while in another one child might look completely out of place. I wasn’t sure what you meant when you said stereotypical look because of Asian ancestry. Are not the Jews originally from the Middle East until forced on their wandering ways? The stereotypical or ‘hook’ nose is a Semitic variety common among peoples of Middle Eastern tribes. Anyway, enough of that, I still wonder if there are no photos of Koz surely there are some somewhere of brothers or sisters or cousins or parents or something. This would pique interest if nothing else.



Greg

[Errata]

I wasn’t sure what you meant when you said stereotypical look because of Asian ancestry. Are not the Jews originally from the Middle East until forced on their wandering ways? The stereotypical or ‘hook’ nose is a Semitic variety common among peoples of Middle Eastern tribes.

It is off topic, but just so I am clear as it occasionally crops up. Eastern Europe tends to have a lot of influence on its phenotype from injections of Asian blood. And when I say Asian, I do not mean China, Japan, etc. The Middle East and environs are Asian. Turkey, Hungary, and places like Kazakhstan which counts it's ancestry from the Huns, even from the Crusades. And while intermarrying is frowned upon in the Jewish population, that is actually a relatively recent concern and an impossible ban to maintain for 500 to 1700 years as the breeding population was nowhere near large enough from the Diaspora.

So Jews look like where they come from. My dad looks like an Eastern European Jew because his parent's were, and they met and married in New York which is a large population of Eastern European Jews. My dad met my mom in Philadelphia, her ancestors are Scottish, and my sister and I were born in South Carolina with light hair and light eyes. My sister married a local boy who is an Aryan poster boy (blond, blue eyed) and I will as well. So our children will likely be quite Aryan, and still Jewish.

And the only way any of this is remotely relative to the thread at hand, is that since Kosminski is referred to as an Eastern European Jew by his accusers, and likely were commenting on his looks rather than his actual nationality, if he were in fact more Germanic looking than Slavic then it could indicate that his accusers were confusing him with someone else.

Otherwise, this has been merely a lesson on the differences between race and culture. And knowing is half the battle. (Go Joe!)

[Chris]

And the only way any of this is remotely relative to the thread at hand, is that since Kosminski is referred to as an Eastern European Jew by his accusers, and likely were commenting on his looks rather than his actual nationality, if he were in fact more Germanic looking than Slavic then it could indicate that his accusers were confusing him with someone else.

Macnaghten and Anderson refer to him as a Polish Jew (presumably because he was born in Poland).

[Errata]

Macnaghten and Anderson refer to him as a Polish Jew (presumably because he was born in Poland).

You are correct. He refers to "polish Jew" being a reference to race, not religion. This part (the only part I remembered off hand) led me to believe that the suspect looked like a stereotypical Jew, which would be eastern European not necessarily Polish.

So really my previous post had no value. Mea Culpa