When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[Paddy]

Batman.

This is all very compelling. You can see why they would take an interest in him if there were different lines of facts popping up like this.

So would the door-to-door searches that happened during Anderson's holiday be able to explain them first coming into contact with Aaron?

I didn't think clearly that the door-to-door checking would obviously have extended itself to Stride's region of murder. Since they believe the double event was related why wouldn't they?

Swanson's 19th October report is after 11th October which is 11 days after the double event.

Do you think they moved out because they got searched?

Some of my personal views :
1) They went up to Cheetham Manchester to ask help of Betsy's brother Jacob Cohen.

2) Aaron went to live and guard the shop in Carter lane that may have been already established. Remember he was caught with unmuzzled dog in the city in 1889 and said it was Jacobs.

3) Aaron was sent away by the Jewish Board for a rest like they did Pizar.

4 I do think there is some connection with the kuers at 22 Batty street

I would have thought he was sent away as Betsy was pregnant she later lost the child born too early.

I don't know why Rebecca was kept off school though maybe she was sent away to a relative? Might pay to look at manchester school records for those 6 months?
Pat.....

[MrBarnett]

But you are forgetting Eddowes murder came under the jurisdiction of The City Police.Their one and only murder in the series. They may well have had a better relationship with the press than the Met.

I would suggest that if this ID had have happened as was intimated then there would be no reason to withhold the suspect description because they has nothing else to work with on the investigation.

After all they did issue a description of the victim, so why not a suspect ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Perhaps because the description might have been so generic as to be useless in identifying the killer and anyone looking remotely like the description might have been lynched?

[Simon Wood]

Macnaghten’s second suspect in his memorandum was a Polish Jew, “Kosminski”, who “was removed to an asylum about March 1889”.

This date was wildly off the mark, but at a casual glance a measure of cause and effect could be drawn from James Monro’s 15th March 1889 report informing the Home Secretary that the extra Whitechapel patrols “had now ceased.”

But as Macnaghten was not appointed Assistant Chief Constable until June 1889, he could not have had any first hand knowledge of this alleged event.

Also, what Macnaghten neglected to explain was why, if Kosminski was the murderer and subsequently removed to an asylum, four months later in a report to the Home Office dated 17th July 1889, Metropolitan Police Commissioner James Monro “was inclined to believe” that the murderer of Alice McKenzie was “identical with the notorious Jack the Ripper of last year.”

Macnaghten was talking BS.

[Wickerman]

But you are forgetting Eddowes murder came under the jurisdiction of The City Police.Their one and only murder in the series.

If that were the case Trevor, why would Anderson be involved?, he was distinctly Met.

They may well have had a better relationship with the press than the Met.

That appears to be the case, the press had a better relationship with City police than with the Met.

I would suggest that if this ID had have happened as was intimated then there would be no reason to withhold the suspect description because they has nothing else to work with on the investigation.

I can't see Anderson making the whole thing up, especially with Swanson appearing to know what his friend was talking about.
Although, like you I would expect there to have been a number of people involved who might have mentioned something consistent with this ID.
But there's nothing.
Our huge lack of case information makes it difficult to judge, but I think something is wrong with this story.

After all they did issue a description of the victim, so why not a suspect ?

Nothing unusual in that, they obviously need to know if anyone saw the victim anywhere, or with anyone close to the time of the murder.

Not issuing a suspect description is obviously intended to not tip off the killer that he is identified and is being looked for.
Their thinking does make sense, and today the police face the same problem, but the benefits of sharing who they are looking for outweighs the possible negatives.
The public being the eyes and ears of police, was not recognised in the very deep routed class society of the 19th century.

[Batman]

Also, what Macnaghten neglected to explain was why, if Kosminski was the murderer and subsequently removed to an asylum, four months later in a report to the Home Office dated 17th July 1889, Metropolitan Police Commissioner James Monro “was inclined to believe” that the murderer of Alice McKenzie was “identical with the notorious Jack the Ripper of last year.”

Macnaghten was talking BS.

Yeah, McKenzie has shades of Stride and rules out Kozminski if it is JtR but a blunt knife is the one thing standing out that makes it seem like not JtR who used a razor sharp one. Still seems he was running in the direction that he ran in the last time with Eddowes. Isn't there also a connection to White's Row here? I think she spent the night with Sadler in a lodging house there. Eddowes used the name Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, on her pawn ticket.

[Paddy]

Not issuing a suspect description is obviously intended to not tip off the killer that he is identified and is being looked for.
Their thinking does make sense, and today the police face the same problem, but the benefits of sharing who they are looking for outweighs the possible negatives.
The public being the eyes and ears of police, was not recognised in the very deep routed class society of the 19th century.

Hi Jon, I think they could also withhold a description so they could verify which witnesses saw the same man and woman.

[jerryd]

Yeah, McKenzie has shades of Stride and rules out Kozminski if it is JtR but a blunt knife is the one thing standing out that makes it seem like not JtR who used a razor sharp one. Still seems he was running in the direction that he ran in the last time with Eddowes. Isn't there also a connection to White's Row here? I think she spent the night with Sadler in a lodging house there. Eddowes used the name Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, on her pawn ticket.

Hi Batman,

You are speaking of details from the Francis Coles murder in February of 1891.

[jerryd]

Also, what Macnaghten neglected to explain was why, if Kosminski was the murderer and subsequently removed to an asylum, four months later in a report to the Home Office dated 17th July 1889, Metropolitan Police Commissioner James Monro “was inclined to believe” that the murderer of Alice McKenzie was “identical with the notorious Jack the Ripper of last year.”

Macnaghten was talking BS.

Hi Simon,

Even back in the day they were cherry picking to fit their own theory.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

We'll eventually discover that the cops didn't have theories.

They peddled contradictory BS to keep people from the truth.

And it has worked.

Regards,

Simon

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

You are speaking of details from the Francis Coles murder in February of 1891.

You are absolutely correct. It was Coles but same details. Not McKenzie.

[Batman]

Hi Jerry,

We'll eventually discover that the cops didn't have theories.

They peddled contradictory BS to keep people from the truth.

And it has worked.

Regards,

Simon

I find it interesting how Eddowes was attacked near a street with a new bobby on the beat at Goulston St., how Coles was attacked with a new bobby on the beat at Swallow Gardens, how MJK was attacked during a beat with what seems like a PC drafted in from Lambert (63L) that we haven't got a clue about, apparently handling the whole of the worst street in London and not seeing a thing.

It was like JtR was ahead of them each step, knew where they would be and how to avoid them while at the same time picking up a potential victim along the way. Apparently, someone was heard walking down Miller's court in the early hours of the morning and may have been a PC on the beat.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps because the description might have been so generic as to be useless in identifying the killer and anyone looking remotely like the description might have been lynched?

My thoughts as well. feelings were running high and the police were being highly criticised for not catching the killer. Lusk etc were setting up in effect vigilante clubs. That's the last thing the police needed a load of people preparing to take the law into their own hands. A sailor drinking in the ten bells say with flecks of blood on his hands you can imagine what might happen. Look at today when social media tries exposing people who have been released after certain crimes.

[Batman]

My thoughts as well. feelings were running high and the police were being highly criticised for not catching the killer. Lusk etc were setting up in effect vigilante clubs. That's the last thing the police needed a load of people preparing to take the law into their own hands. A sailor drinking in the ten bells say with flecks of blood on his hands you can imagine what might happen. Look at today when social media tries exposing people who have been released after certain crimes.

Illustrated Police News had loads of JtR art and drew witness descriptions quite a bit.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Illustrated Police News had loads of JtR art and drew witness descriptions quite a bit.

Yes, but we do know they tried to suppress Lawende's description [perhaps others, not too sure off the top of my head]. Was he the one whose sighting they trusted most?

[Harry D]

You are absolutely correct. It was Coles but same details. Not McKenzie.

McKenzie was a Ripper victim, as were Elizabeth Jackson and the Pinchin St torso in 1889.