When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[Fisherman]

I am not sure if you understand what I said here. Two serial killers operating at the same time in a 9km^2 area is unheard of.

Serial killers operating in the same area at different time periods is another matter. You will find that.



I can't show you that.

However, that doesn't mean MO changes from JtR style murders to poisonings can't happen.

It is like me asking, name another serial killer who changed their MO from serial suffocations to serial harassment as a compliance officer.

You can't. Neither can I.

However, he exists. Dennis Rader is his name.

Believe me, I understand exactly what you are saying. And there are examples of overlapping serial killers. The geographical angle is a bit moot, since 1888 did not offer the same means of movement as we have nowadays. But it should be of interest that the FBI recently presented a list of around 500 unsolved so called highway murders in USA. Many of those killings will be parts of serial killer series, and that tells me that these creatures can operate quite close to each other in spades. It would be odd in the extreme if no two killers crossed ways geographically with those numbers!

Evisceration killers, however, are another ilk. They are very, very rare. They murder on account of a wish to cut people up and cut their organs out. Such people will NOT convert to poisoning. Which is why you cannot name a single example. What you can do is to profess to a belief that such a thing could happen, which brings us back to your original point - the one of failing to understand things. It seems to me you have fallen victim to that parameter.

Now, if you cannot offer any examples on account of them not being there - and it is not the same as Rader moving from killer to complainter, but instead a case of moving from urge-induced very intimate and hands-on murders, digging into other peoples bodies with a sharp implement, to the cool and distanced method of poisoning other people - I suggest that our debate has come to an end.

[Batman]

Now, if you cannot offer any examples on account of them not being there - and it is not the same as Rader moving from killer to complainter, but instead a case of moving from urge-induced very intimate and hands-on murders, digging into other peoples bodies with a sharp implement, to the cool and distanced method of poisoning other people - I suggest that our debate has come to an end.

I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes. There is no barrier to them committing other crimes. In fact, this is why we search current prisoners to see if the SKs could be incarcerated for a completely different crime or even a similar crime that was never linked. They are human beings committing crimes. The idea the JtR murderer couldn't find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill someone is a farce. Just think about it for two seconds. It's a misunderstanding that Serial Killers can't commit other crimes. In fact, these are the very people who would have no trouble to open up a bottle of poison and kill someone. Hence why they are candidates. All this stuff about Chapman can't change his MO is late 80s, early 90s nonsense that has well been undermined by 30-40 years of forensic psychology.

Bet you we can find poisoners who murdered people by other means also, no problem.

The special treatment for eviscerators is something I don't think is even present in the professional literature on the matter, namely peer-reviewed forensic psychology papers.

[Sam Flynn]

A serial killer is unlikely. Two in the same 9km^2 at the same time is highly unlikely. It's all unlikely stuff, but the facts are what they are. It doesn't make him JtR but these MO barrier changes are not barriers at all IMO.

As far as we know, Klosowski wasn't even a one-off killer, never mind a serial one, in 1888. In fact, all the evidence we have shows that he wouldn't become a "first-time killer" until several years later. Even if Klosowski was resident in Whitechapel in 1888 (and that's by no means certain), his presence wouldn't have doubled the district's serial killer "quota" in any case, because he had probably yet to kill anyone at that time.

[Sam Flynn]

Just remembered this was a Kosminski thread. Sorry.

Batman - if you want to talk Klosowski, please consider moving the discussion to a Klosowski thread. I'm not going to post any more Klosowski stuff here, and I recommend others follow suit.

Edit: Ditto the Torso murders, or general discussions like SKs changing their MO, for that matter. There are threads for those things, too.

[Fisherman]

I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes. There is no barrier to them committing other crimes. In fact, this is why we search current prisoners to see if the SKs could be incarcerated for a completely different crime or even a similar crime that was never linked. They are human beings committing crimes. The idea the JtR murderer couldn't find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill someone is a farce. Just think about it for two seconds. It's a misunderstanding that Serial Killers can't commit other crimes. In fact, these are the very people who would have no trouble to open up a bottle of poison and kill someone. Hence why they are candidates. All this stuff about Chapman can't change his MO is late 80s, early 90s nonsense that has well been undermined by 30-40 years of forensic psychology.

Bet you we can find poisoners who murdered people by other means also, no problem.

The special treatment for eviscerators is something I don't think is even present in the professional literature on the matter, namely peer-reviewed forensic psychology papers.

That is an interesting approach: "I am not going to give special treatment to eviscerators when it comes to MO changes". And then YOU tell ME to "think about things for two seconds...?

Do you think that eviscerations are things that come about as a bi-product of shoplifting? That they are commonplace matters that can pop up within anyone of us?

The fewest crimes offer a more definitive stamp on themselves than evisceration murders. They are acts brought about by urges that are rarer than hens´ teeth. Until we understand that, we may be wise not to propagate for eviscerators morphing into poisoners.

Once again, I am not saying that Chapman (or anybody else) could not change his MO. Don´t pin that on me! He obviously could do so - but it is the magnitude of the metamorphosis you suggest that is beyond belief.

Nor should you pin the idea that the Ripper "could not find the balls to open a bottle of poison and kill somebody with it" on me. The Ripper did not lack "balls" - on the contrary. He had "balls" enough to attack and kill women in the open London streets and eviscerate them there. That speaks tons about his motivation - he was willing to risk his neck in order to be able to cut women open and eviscerate them. That is how strong his urge was to get his hands on their bodies to rip them open and to cut their organs out. It was a case of here and now, no interruptions, no waiting, no hesitation - down you go and out your organs come!

To speculate that such a man with that kind of drive would cool off and forget about his physical urges, instead opting for poisoning fiancées and waiting patiently for them to succumb and die is simply not credible in any sense of the word.

On another note, I take it you are a firm believer that the Ripper and the torso killer were one and the same? Given what you allow for in MO changes, and how you cannot imagine two serialists in the same city, I mean? Any confirmation of that?

[Batman]

Do you have anything in the professional literature that says eviscerators can't de-escalate into other forms of crime including murder?

What is the barrier? You are saying the person really wants to eviscerate (yeah, of course) and what? That's the barrier?

To speculate that such a man with that kind of drive would cool off and forget about his physical urges, instead opting for poisoning fiancées and waiting patiently for them to succumb and die is simply not credible in any sense of the word.

Who says he forgot about any urges? Did BTK just forget his urges? No. They can wait for long periods of time and commit other types of crimes including homicide.

There is no incredible barrier. There is no big leap. There is simply the false notion that someone who cuts open women can't poison them also or won't poison them because he has other urges?

Do you think Chapman planned on getting caught? Of course not. If it wasn't for the gallows he could go on to committing whatever crime he fancied after that and didn't have to stick to poisoning... which plenty of poisoners have done, going on to commit other crimes.

Why do you think prisons are being checked for potential serial killers? Do you know there are DNA projects to gather DEAD INMATE DNA to help solve cold cases?

How about JtR had a fear of poison and thought women were trying to poison him. Then he turned the tables on them. There are loads of angles.

H.H.Holmes not only poisoned and gassed people, he butchered them also.

[Fisherman]

If you move to the thread SUSPECTS: Klosowski, Severin: Probably not him, but ...

... I will give my answers there. If I have anything to add. I think I have been crystal clear so far.

[Batman]

It's up to yourself. Maybe another time. I'd be willing to read a modern forensic psychology paper supporting your position. That would be a good place to start.

As for the thread, halfway back a ripper mag reference puts Kozminski near Berner st and moving out shortly after the double event.

[Fisherman]

It's up to yourself. Maybe another time. I'd be willing to read a modern forensic psychology paper supporting your position. That would be a good place to start.

As for the thread, halfway back a ripper mag reference puts Kozminski near Berner st and moving out shortly after the double event.

Yes, and my favourite resident in the area is Maria Louisa Lechmere, née Roulson, living at 1 Mary Ann Street at the time of the Stride murder. She actually had a son, who ... Oh, it´s a Kosminski thread!

[Paddy]

Probably nothing to do with anything but I shall throw it in here just in case. Isaac Abrahams, Aaron's brother quit the Freemasons in March 1889

Pat....

[Batman]

Probably nothing to do with anything but I shall throw it in here just in case. Isaac Abrahams, Aaron's brother quit the Freemasons in March 1889

Pat....

What's your view on Freemasons back then? I am under the impression it was nothing more groups of men, many who knew each other since school days, having a ceremony in which they congratulate themselves and then proceed to get as roaring drunk as possible away from rabble which they don't want witnessing their piss-up parties.

[Paddy]

What's your view on Freemasons back then? I am under the impression it was nothing more groups of men, many who knew each other since school days, having a ceremony in which they congratulate themselves and then proceed to get as roaring drunk as possible away from rabble which they don't want witnessing their piss-up parties.

Groups of Local business men that had to be voted in and were part of the establishment and raised funds. Piss ups were the norm for everyone back then. The poor, in their corner pubs, the business men in their lodges and the upper classes in their clubs or social groups. Definitely agree with the congratulating themselves bit...
Pat...

[MrBarnett]

Yes, and my favourite resident in the area is Maria Louisa Lechmere, née Roulson, living at 1 Mary Ann Street at the time of the Stride murder. She actually had a son, who ... Oh, it´s a Kosminski thread!

Mine too.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=27926&highlight=Roulson

[Paddy]

Do you have anything in the professional literature that says eviscerators can't de-escalate into other forms of crime including murder?

I wouldn't have thought that someone with Jack the ripper's motivation could change that driving force. An MO can change but I would think not the motivation. Chapman appears to have killed to get partners out of the way. Jack killed as he got a thrill from evisceration, two totally different motives and different victims.

Pat.............

[Batman]

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=459115#post459115

I decided to go ahead and link up to the Chapman section for this stuff. New answer there for you.