When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[packers stem]

The thing is Chapman does stand out here. Otherwise, there are two serial killers living in a 9km^2 area at the same time. Chapman in 1888 and JtR in 1888. If we add in the torso killer, then that's three at the same time.

Even in a population density of 250,000, that's unheard of without upping the density to 400,000 but also the area covering more to extend to at least 400km^2. That's where we find London, Ontario, which had three at the same time.

Even today look at the serial killers from London, living in London at the time, say since the 1940s. Even today the population density would be nearly the whole population of London and it's entire area.

Anything I have read on Chapman just clears up errors made about his life but doesn't end up exonerating him by any means.

Leaving a poisoner out of it if we can ....
Ask yourself under what circumstances possible is it likely that there could be two sets of random killings in the same location and time frame which although murders and the use of a knife , are different enough in MO to make it obvious that they weren't by the same hand.
For this you will have to think outside the box and forget anything to do with serial killers do this or that profiling rubbish

[Batman]

I conclude from that that London was the first city to experience two very different sets of killings at the same time .
You've pointed out a couple of similarities but not mentioned the differences .
The heads and various limbs were removed .
They were killed at locations other than those they were found at and dumped .... almost certainly involving more than one person when looking at it logistically
We've seen it many times over the years , people's temptation to tie one killer into another .
Chapman , hh Holmes , Cream
It doesn't work for me , sorry
I will accept the Whitehall torso is highly likely to be linked to the Whitechapel murders due to the date the arm was dumped in the thames, and the timing of the dumping in the vault as I am not a lover of extreme coincidence
Linked but not in the way you think

The thing is Chapman does stand out here. Otherwise, there are two serial killers living in a 9km^2 area at the same time. Chapman in 1888 and JtR in 1888. If we add in the torso killer, then that's three at the same time.

Even in a population density of 250,000, that's unheard of without upping the density to 400,000 but also the area covering more to extend to at least 400km^2. That's where we find London, Ontario, which had three at the same time.

Even today look at the serial killers from London, living in London at the time, say since the 1940s. Even today the population density would be nearly the whole population of London and it's entire area.

Anything I have read on Chapman just clears up errors made about his life but doesn't end up exonerating him by any means.

[Fisherman]

You are not the only Hard Lechmereite Christer.
I used the plural in my post did I not. If I had meant you, I would have said so.

I see however from your remarks that you are actually not denying that later Bodies are indeed includied in the possible count, why then the objection? Yes lets get back to the thread, of a man suspected at the time, why we are not sure? but suspected he certainly seems to have been.

Steve

If I say that the bodies must be looked at with interest, since they were found in close proximity to where Charles Lechmere had a stall in Broadway Market - how on earth can you twist that into a denial on my behalf that the bodies can be included in a possible count...?

How do these things work? What drug do I have to use to understand it? Is there something that I can put in my pipe that will reveal it to me?

You will not get any denial or conformation from me on the score, for the simple reason that I do not know enough about the cases to decide either way. From what I have learnt, there can be no certainty either way. Edward may know more - he, I presume, is the "hard Lechmerite" you speak of. If that is true, you are in trouble - nobody on planet Earth knows more about Charles Lechmere than he does, so he will be in a position to make a very good call.

Then again, he is probably too biased to see how the naysayer brigade is so much more sensible and discerning than he is.

Now - Kosminski! Yes, he was suspected. No, he was not the Ripper/Torso killer, who were in all probability one and the same man.

Itīs much like Chapman.

And Bury.

And Tumblety.

And Druitt.

And a whole lot more.

[packers stem]

Thereīs no "clearly" about that, Iīm afraid. Bellies cut open from sternum to pubes, uteri taken out and the abdominal wall removed in large sections are present in both series. How that is a clear example of different hands at work illudes me.

There are no examples of two simultaneously working serialists who eviscerated in the same area.

There are examples of serialists who dismembered only some of their victims.

Conclude from that, please!

I conclude from that that London was the first city to experience two very different sets of killings at the same time .
You've pointed out a couple of similarities but not mentioned the differences .
The heads and various limbs were removed .
They were killed at locations other than those they were found at and dumped .... almost certainly involving more than one person when looking at it logistically
We've seen it many times over the years , people's temptation to tie one killer into another .
Chapman , hh Holmes , Cream
It doesn't work for me , sorry
I will accept the Whitehall torso is highly likely to be linked to the Whitechapel murders due to the date the arm was dumped in the thames, and the timing of the dumping in the vault as I am not a lover of extreme coincidence
Linked but not in the way you think

[Elamarna]

Do I? Since when? As far as I can tell, what has been said is that there were two women found floating in parts in Regents Canal close to where Charles Lechmere worked in Broadway market in later years, and that this is something that must be of interest if one proposes him as the Ripper/Torso killer.

But you "happily" extend that to me having stated it as a fact that he was probably the killer of these women?

You see, things like these leave a bad taste in my mouth. The boards are riddled with it - exaggerations about the theory I propose, falsely suggested to have itīs origin with me.

If you can manage to tread a little more lightly, I would be thankful. If not, I could always say "boy, am I surprised!" and then claim I meant nothing degrading by saying it.

Now, letīs leave the thread to one of the guys who was not the combined Ripper/Torso killer: Aaron Kosminski.

You are not the only Hard Lechmereite Christer.
I used the plural in my post did I not. If I had meant you, I would have said so.

I see however from your remarks that you are actually not denying that later Bodies are indeed includied in the possible count, why then the objection? Yes lets get back to the thread, of a man suspected at the time, why we are not sure? but suspected he certainly seems to have been.

Steve

[Fisherman]

My Dear Abby,

just one issue there, the shall we say hard Lechmereites, don't beleive the torso's ended in 89, they happily go on upto 1899 or thereabouts.


Steve

Do I? Since when? As far as I can tell, what has been said is that there were two women found floating in parts in Regents Canal close to where Charles Lechmere worked in Broadway market in later years, and that this is something that must be of interest if one proposes him as the Ripper/Torso killer.

But you "happily" extend that to me having stated it as a fact that he was probably the killer of these women?

You see, things like these leave a bad taste in my mouth. The boards are riddled with it - exaggerations about the theory I propose, falsely suggested to have itīs origin with me.

If you can manage to tread a little more lightly, I would be thankful. If not, I could always say "boy, am I surprised!" and then claim I meant nothing degrading by saying it.

Now, letīs leave the thread to one of the guys who was not the combined Ripper/Torso killer: Aaron Kosminski.

[Abby Normal]

Anyway going back to the original post of this thread by Batman and what Anderson said - During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews, for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice. And the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point.

A possible link could be made with what Warren said in a letter dated 17 October to the Secretary of State [found on page 306 ultimate sourcebook]. He says in reply to a question - and one of the logical solutions as to the murders is that there may be several persons who are more or less assisting the murderer. Now, this was not long after the door to door search. I know he doesn't mention specifically Polish low-class jews, but it could be likely that he was one of the, we, Anderson mentions about and the conclusion they came to that the murderer was being shielded as such.

HI DK
Yup-one of the things this shows-Anderson (and perhaps Warren also) is that Anderson had a preconceived Jew theory.

No wonder he pointed to a jew as the killer, once a jewish suspect was eventually brought up.

Im actually surprised more people don't bring up this statement by Anderson as proof he was biased from the start and full of shite.

[Elamarna]

Anyway going back to the original post of this thread by Batman and what Anderson said - During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews, for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice. And the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point.

A possible link could be made with what Warren said in a letter dated 17 October to the Secretary of State [found on page 306 ultimate sourcebook]. He says in reply to a question - and one of the logical solutions as to the murders is that there may be several persons who are more or less assisting the murderer. Now, this was not long after the door to door search. I know he doesn't mention specifically Polish low-class jews, but it could be likely that he was one of the, we, Anderson mentions about and the conclusion they came to that the murderer was being shielded as such.

A fair point I think

[Darryl Kenyon]

Anyway going back to the original post of this thread by Batman and what Anderson said - During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews, for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice. And the result proved that our diagnosis was right on every point.

A possible link could be made with what Warren said in a letter dated 17 October to the Secretary of State [found on page 306 ultimate sourcebook]. He says in reply to a question - and one of the logical solutions as to the murders is that there may be several persons who are more or less assisting the murderer. Now, this was not long after the door to door search. I know he doesn't mention specifically Polish low-class jews, but it could be likely that he was one of the, we, Anderson mentions about and the conclusion they came to that the murderer was being shielded as such.

[Elamarna]

but im not a Lechmereite, just a Lechmere apologist. LOL ; )

I know you are not Abby, or else you would never say they stop in 89.

Steve

[Elamarna]

It still applies that you have no business saying "boy, am I surprised" about me withholding things for the simple reason that you have withheld things for quite some time now, regardless if you will publish in the future. Fair is fair.

Speaking about "assumptions and suggestions" on my behalf is just dumb - most of the material out here is built on assumptions and suggestions. Much in your book will be built on assumptions and suggestions. The idea that the canonical five were all the Rippers and his only murders is assumption and suggestion. Not least, your whole take on why the two series would not have the same originator builds totally on assumptions and suggestions about a different mindset und so weiter.

Assumptions and suggestions are what theories are about, Steve. Otherwise, they would not be theories.

I will try to make a fair assessment of your efforts on Nichols and Bucks Row, instead of kneejerk sneering at it. That is on account of how I choose to do so, not on account of how you extend the same courtesy to me. If I should nevertheles arrive at the conclusion that it is a waste of paper and/or cyberspace, fear not; I can already list a number of people who will be very enthusiastic about it. Speaking of kneejerk reactions, that is.

Sorry, I have every right to say whatever I like, so long as I am not rude, or break any of the forum rules.

There is no sneering at your work, you are consistent in not giving details on this link and the "boy I am not surprised" was just acknowleding this fact. you take umbrage far to easily. However I will happily say sorry if you fealt offended, such was not the intent of the comment.


Assumption and suggestions ? I agree entirely that theories are based on these, however such do normally require some facts to work with. and that was all I was asking, and have been for some time: just what ACTUAL facts can there be to link the two murders?
My failure to see a link, is due totally to the lack of solid evidence, and nothing to do with assumptions on my part at all.

I am full prepared for what ever anyone says about my work, and the mistakes, and there are bound to be some will be corrected at once.

Steve

[Abby Normal]

My Dear Abby,

just one issue there, the shall we say hard Lechmereites, don't beleive the torso's ended in 89, they happily go on upto 1899 or thereabouts.


Steve

but im not a Lechmereite, just a Lechmere apologist. LOL ; )

[Fisherman]

An intriguing timings link with Whitehall and the interesting location but clearly not the same hand

Thereīs no "clearly" about that, Iīm afraid. Bellies cut open from sternum to pubes, uteri taken out and the abdominal wall removed in large sections are present in both series. How that is a clear example of different hands at work illudes me.

There are no examples of two simultaneously working serialists who eviscerated in the same area.

There are examples of serialists who dismembered only some of their victims.

Conclude from that, please!

[Fisherman]

As for the book, no perhaps about it. The summary report will be posted here in next 7 days, and the book, ready for release in November.

I am not joining anyone in discussion and debate.I simply wonder what conclusive or even semi conclusive evidence there can be to link 2 murders 15 years apart, when there were and are no forensics.


Steve

It still applies that you have no business saying "boy, am I surprised" about me withholding things for the simple reason that you have withheld things for quite some time now, regardless if you will publish in the future. Fair is fair.

Speaking about "assumptions and suggestions" on my behalf is just dumb - most of the material out here is built on assumptions and suggestions. Much in your book will be built on assumptions and suggestions. The idea that the canonical five were all the Rippers and his only murders is assumption and suggestion. Not least, your whole take on why the two series would not have the same originator builds totally on assumptions and suggestions about a different mindset und so weiter.

Assumptions and suggestions are what theories are about, Steve. Otherwise, they would not be theories.

I will try to make a fair assessment of your efforts on Nichols and Bucks Row, instead of kneejerk sneering at it. That is on account of how I choose to do so, not on account of how you extend the same courtesy to me. If I should nevertheles arrive at the conclusion that it is a waste of paper and/or cyberspace, fear not; I can already list a number of people who will be very enthusiastic about it. Speaking of kneejerk reactions, that is.

[packers stem]

If the police have two murders on their hands, in the same area and at the same time, and if they both involve odd and very unusual similarities, then they will assume and suppose that they are dealing with the same killer.

That does not apply out here, I know - but in that parallel universe called the real world, it does.

An intriguing timings link with Whitehall and the interesting location but clearly not the same hand