Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Batman]

Hi Batman, let me make sure I understand.

You provided a quote from Helena's book. So you are arguing Klosowski (Chapman) makes a good Ripper suspect after you read her book. After. Did I hear that right?

Paddy

The quote was a different fact involving Chapman dressing like a sailor when in the dock in court.

I am discussing the issue with BTK changing his MO and Signature. Which went from serial strangular to compliance officer socially engineering hell on Earth for some women.

[Sam Flynn]

I am discussing the issue with BTK changing his MO and Signature. Which went from serial strangular to compliance officer socially engineering hell on Earth for some women.

Yes, but he didn't kill them, did he? And given that Rader was such an arse, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have been obnoxious to other people all his life. It's not like he was "switching MO" or anything.

PS: Didn't he also pick on kids whilst a compliance officer? It wasn't just women he pissed off.

[Batman]

What Rader did in a professional capacity had no bearing on what he did as a clandestine prowler armed with a rope and a set of wire-cutters, homing in on women who had been the subjects of his masturbatory fantasies for some time.

Loads of SKs have used their job in their MO. BTK installed security alarms for a decade during the murders. He then was a census taker going around to people's homes. Dalhmer used funds from the ice-cream factory and their connections to get his barrels of acid, etc. H.H.Holmes used his hotel as a murder home and his pharmacy to procure poisons for it. BTK was using his job as a compliance officer to harass women. Just because they have a job doesn't mean they aren't using it as part of their MO.

I wouldn't expect him to have strangled a colleague, nor a "customer" of his as a dog warden, unless they too happened to be someone he was stalking.

He never murdered them or any of his targets. For 14 years he didn't murder anyone, despite murdering more people than JtR over a longer period of time.

Dennis Rader has stopped murdering/paused and is getting his kicks turning to something else, which doesn't even involve murder.

In which case he may well have bound, tortured and killed them too. And, when he killed, he went about it in the same general manner, and did similar awful things to his victims before and after death.

He wasn't doing that for 14 years. He wasn't dead. He wasn't in prison. He wasn't incapacitated in some way. No asylum either. He was hurting women another way and he wasn't strangling them to do it. He wasn't even murdering them.

There is no analogy or comparison to be made with the criteria which distinguish Klosowski from the Ripper.

Your criteria failed to link Dennis Rader to BTK, let's alone work in a comparative model between offenders. I even offered that you go through each point, but you have skipped it.

[Batman]

Yes, but he didn't kill them, did he? And given that Rader was such an arse, I wouldn't be surprised if he'd have been obnoxious to other people all his life. It's not like he was "switching MO" or anything.

PS: Didn't he also pick on kids whilst a compliance officer? It wasn't just women he pissed off.

Dennis Rader was breaking the law as a compliance officer. He actually had a restraining order filed against him. He wasn't just being 'obnoxious'. He was breaking and entering (as he did as BTK), untying their dogs and driving them off to the vets to get put down. Animal cruelty and extreme anti-social behavior. If he was caught doing this, he would go to jail for it. He would stalk around the women's properties looking in windows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPz931jO3A&feature=youtu.be&t=2004

This documentary covers interviews with the women and what happened at this above time mark.

[Sam Flynn]

Dennis Rader was breaking the law as a compliance officer. He actually had a restraining order filed against him. He wasn't just being 'obnoxious'. He was breaking and entering (as he did as BTK), untying their dogs and driving them off to the vets to get put down. Animal cruelty and extreme anti-social behavior. If he was caught doing this, he would go to jail for it. He would stalk around the women's properties looking in windows.

Like I said, he was an arse, but he didn't kill those people, did he? And, of those he killed, he didn't slowly poison them to death or gas them. He didn't kill some in the street, or lure them into his truck to kill them at a remote location etc, etc. No - when he killed, his MO was pretty darned constant throughout.

There is no parallel between Rader and your theoretical killer who so altered his methods that he went from the rapid throat-cutting and evisceration of strangers in public to the slow, bloodless poisoning of partners at home.

[Paddy Goose]

The quote was a different fact involving Chapman dressing like a sailor when in the dock in court.

You didn't answer my question. To repeat, I asked you, since you used a quote from her book, if you developed your conviction that Klosowski (Chapman) makes a good Ripper suspect after reading Helena's book. After. You may answer at your convenience, please.

It's quite interesting really, as Helena posted extensively here when she began her research.

Paddy

[Batman]

Like I said, he was an arse, but he didn't kill those people, did he? And, of those he killed, he didn't slowly poison them to death or gas them. He didn't kill some in the street, or lure them into his truck to kill them at a remote location etc, etc. No - when he killed, his MO was pretty darned constant throughout.

There is no parallel between Rader and your theoretical killer who so altered his methods that he went from the rapid throat-cutting and evisceration of strangers in public to the slow, bloodless poisoning of partners at home.

If you believe that, having watched the YouTube video, then ok. I can't convince you that he got his emotional satisfaction this way instead which is all I am going to present on the matter of changing MO and Signature, the BTK example. You have 14 years to account for then, but I have accounted for them by demonstrating he did something else, which didn't even involve murder.

There is no barrier preventing JtR also committing crimes involving poisoning. Certainly not in the professional literature. It is just an opinion not based on any modern forensic psychology.

[Batman]

You didn't answer my question. To repeat, I asked you, since you used a quote from her book, if you developed your conviction that Klosowski (Chapman) makes a good Ripper suspect after reading Helena's book. After. You may answer at your convenience, please.

It's quite interesting really, as Helena posted extensively here when she began her research.

Paddy

I went into Helena's book to learn about all the mistakes made surrounding Chapman which she appears to have done quite well in correcting.

Did it exonerate Chapman as a potential ripper candidate? No. In fact, there were many more things I learned, such as his banned books in a sort of mid-wife collection in the small selection he had, his affinity with sailing and the reasons for murdering his partners, which I thought was always financial, but isn't. Also, the psychological problems he had with the appearance of a Jew which it seems he used sometimes to his advantage pretending to be Jewish even though he wasn't. It is not specifically a problem to him alone, but for many people like him in Whitechapel, however, Chapman seems to have experienced the highs and lows between pretending to be a Jew and then pretending not to be one and being called one all the same.

I recommend the book, but Chapman still ends up being all the more a candidate whom Sugden put forward as his #1 choice and I still think Sugden could very well be right.

[Abby Normal]

I went into Helena's book to learn about all the mistakes made surrounding Chapman which she appears to have done quite well in correcting.

Did it exonerate Chapman as a potential ripper candidate? No. In fact, there were many more things I learned, such as his banned books in a sort of mid-wife collection in the small selection he had, his affinity with sailing and the reasons for murdering his partners, which I thought was always financial, but isn't. Also, the psychological problems he had with the appearance of a Jew which it seems he used sometimes to his advantage pretending to be Jewish even though he wasn't. It is not specifically a problem to him alone, but for many people like him in Whitechapel, however, Chapman seems to have experienced the highs and lows between pretending to be a Jew and then pretending not to be one and being called one all the same.

I recommend the book, but Chapman still ends up being all the more a candidate whom Sugden put forward as his #1 choice and I still think Sugden could very well be right.

hey batman
I thought you were advocating a cop as the ripper since one of the reasons is they would need detailed knowledge of the area to avoid detection.


Chapman had only been in WC a couple of months before the ripper murders correct? this is one of my check marks against him, as I think the ripper knew those streets like the back of his hand.Is a couple months long enough to get to know the area in your opinion?

[Sam Flynn]

Chapman had only been in WC a couple of months before the ripper murders correct?

It's conceivable that the murders had already started before he moved into the area, or even that the series had ended before then. All we can know for certain is that he was living at 126 Cable Street in the first two weeks of December 1888. This is because his Cable Street barber's shop was listed in the Post Office directory of 1889, and the directory was still accepting submissions up until 14th December 1888, IIRC.

Even if he had been living in Cable Street during the Ripper series, it was some way out of being the epicentre of the murders, as I noted earlier. One consequence of this, of course, is that a killer based in Cable Street would have had further to walk in order to find a victim. More crucially, he would have been out in the open for longer before he could get safely home, with blood and organs on his person and the police out looking for him.

To give us an idea of what this implies, here's a quick and dirty Google Maps view of the canonical murder sites and their relationship to 126 Cable Street (red star at bottom right), together with approximate walking times. In only one case, that of Liz Stride, was he within a truly short distance of a murder:



I find it rather hard to believe that a comparative newcomer to an area like Whitechapel would commit such audacious crimes knowing that he'd face a 15-20 minute walk - at least once, apparently, in daylight - before reaching the saftety of home.

[Sam Flynn]

I went into Helena's book to learn about all the mistakes made surrounding Chapman which she appears to have done quite well in correcting.

I should point out that I'd corrected quite a number of them before. (No disrespect to Helena at all; her book is magnificent, and her research covered a lot more ground than mine.)

[Batman]

hey batman
I thought you were advocating a cop as the ripper since one of the reasons is they would need detailed knowledge of the area to avoid detection.


Chapman had only been in WC a couple of months before the ripper murders correct? this is one of my check marks against him, as I think the ripper knew those streets like the back of his hand.Is a couple months long enough to get to know the area in your opinion?

I use to think Kozminski was the best candidate and technically is with Swanson which is a big thing with the caveat others seem to disagree with this. Before that was Chapman and I still think is a good candidate. I'm investigating the possibility of a PC because the evidence indicates inside knowledge.

[c.d.]

"I find it rather hard to believe that a comparative newcomer to an area like Whitechapel would commit such audacious crimes knowing that he'd face a 15-20 minute walk - at least once, apparently, in daylight - before reaching the saftety of home."

Hello Sam,

But wouldn't a couple of dry runs using different routes overcome that problem?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I use to think Kozminski was the best candidate and technically is with Swanson which is a big thing with the caveat others seem to disagree with this. Before that was Chapman and I still think is a good candidate. I'm investigating the possibility of a PC because the evidence indicates inside knowledge.

"Best" and "good" are pretty relative. None of the suspects are great. Some are simply better than others.

c.d.

[Batman]

"Best" and "good" are pretty relative. None of the suspects are great. Some are simply better than others.

c.d.

Sure. I would agree with that.

With respect to your other point above, there appears to be a radial explanation to the crimes in terms of geoprofiling putting JtR in the middle of it all.