Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[John G]

I agree with what you're saying about Chapman John. But as you know I differ to you about Bury.

Bury's still one of my top two candidates though!

[Sam Flynn]

Now what's the betting that if Sutcliffe hadn't have been caught someone would be arguing that Shipman was the Yorkshire Ripper? Thus, Yorkshire Ripper active in both Yorkshire and Lancashire; Harold Shipman lived in both of those counties. Shipman and the YR active at the same time. Serial murder rare in Yorkshire and Lancashire. Shipman is a serial killer. Ergo Shipman is the Yorkshire Ripper!

Excellent point.

[John Wheat]

Bury's still one of my top two candidates though!

Fair enough John. Didn't realise you had Bury in your top two candidates.

[Batman]

It's an "anything goes" approach. You may as well say that there's nothing in the literature to disprove the Jill the Ripper mad midwife theory. Of course, the reason for this is that there are no historical examples, no precedents, so why should there be any literature on the subject?

You will find when it comes to MO and Signatures, women are no different than men. There are simply fewer numbers of them compared to men. That's the difference. That's it. Ratios.

The fact is serial poisoners are a breed apart: they're very consistent and they don't commit violent murders: Harold Shipman, Graham Young, George Chapman!

Even H.H.Holmes poisoned and mutilated. Just in that female list alone should be poisoners who also murdered in other ways.

Speaking of Harold Shipman...He was a serial poisoner who lived in both Yorkshire and Lancashire, and was active during the same time period as the Yorkshire Ripper.

Now what's the betting that if Sutcliffe hadn't have been caught someone would be arguing that Shipman was the Yorkshire Ripper? Thus, Yorkshire Ripper active in both Yorkshire and Lancashire; Harold Shipman lived in both of those counties. Shipman and the YR active at the same time. Serial murder rare in Yorkshire and Lancashire. Shipman is a serial killer. Ergo Shipman is the Yorkshire Ripper!

If you were talking about a 9km^2 area around Shipman's home or place of work, then yeah, that would be a breakthrough and means JtR isn't alone. However, this is obviously not it.

Whitechapel is vastly smaller and with a vastly smaller population density. Tiny in comparison.

9km^2 isn't 100 km^2 let alone a 1000 km^2 which some of those areas are. A few tens of thousands of people vs millions of people.

The way around this to allow for two or more serial killers operating in Whitechapel is to claim Whitechapel was special. Yet there are still slums across the planet that don't produce two serial killers living in the same place at the same time.

[Sam Flynn]

If you were talking about a 9km^2 area around Shipman's home or place of work, then yeah, that would be a breakthrough and means JtR isn't alone. However, this is obviously not it.

Speedy private transport was more readily available during the time of Shipman and Sutclifee, which made the serial killer's world rather smaller than it was in Victorian times. You can't compare surface areas across such a large cultural and temporal divide.

Whitechapel is vastly smaller and with a vastly smaller population density.

Incorrect - at least, I don't recall that it was the norm for people to live in overcrowded houses in the 1970s. I think you may need to look up what "population density" means.

The way around this to allow for two or more serial killers operating in Whitechapel is to claim Whitechapel was special. Yet there are still slums across the planet that don't produce two serial killers living in the same place at the same time.

Human psychopathology doesn't conform to a recipe book.

[Batman]

Speedy private transport was more readily available during the time of Shipman and Sutclifee, which made the serial killer's world rather smaller than it was in Victorian times. You can't compare surface areas across such a large cultural and temporal divide.Incorrect - at least, I don't recall that it was the norm for people to live in overcrowded houses in the 1970s. I think you may need to look up what "population density" means.
Human psychopathology doesn't conform to a recipe book.

If it doesn't conform then you have no grounds to dismiss MO/Signature changes claiming they can't happen because poisoners are somehow conforming to a recipe book of not changing signature and same with mutilators apparently.

In my previous statement, I pointed out that these 'special' claims about Whitechapel are being made despite there being a world of impoverished places where people can't afford gas let alone a vehicle to use with it.

Plus you have the whole contemporary span of years surrounding pre-1888 times and say up to 1920. A good sample size to show repeats and yet you won't find them without expanding the variables in your datasets and they will be area and population sizes to start with.

The only thing special about Whitechapel is... nothing more than JtR wasn't caught and plenty others around the world doing similar things were caught. Which is why these places don't take on the mythos of being special.

[John G]

You will find when it comes to MO and Signatures, women are no different than men. There are simply fewer numbers of them compared to men. That's the difference. That's it. Ratios.



Even H.H.Holmes poisoned and mutilated. Just in that female list alone should be poisoners who also murdered in other ways.



If you were talking about a 9km^2 area around Shipman's home or place of work, then yeah, that would be a breakthrough and means JtR isn't alone. However, this is obviously not it.

Whitechapel is vastly smaller and with a vastly smaller population density. Tiny in comparison.

9km^2 isn't 100 km^2 let alone a 1000 km^2 which some of those areas are. A few tens of thousands of people vs millions of people.

The way around this to allow for two or more serial killers operating in Whitechapel is to claim Whitechapel was special. Yet there are still slums across the planet that don't produce two serial killers living in the same place at the same time.

Where's the evidence Holmes poisoned and mutilated? He was a con artist, and the authorities had little idea as to how many people he may have killed, let alone by what method. In fact, several of the people he claimed to have murdered were found to be still alive!

What evidence do you have for female poisoners/mutilators?

[Batman]

Where's the evidence Holmes poisoned and mutilated? He was a con artist, and the authorities had little idea as to how many people he may have killed, let alone by what method. In fact, several of the people he claimed to have murdered were found to be still alive!

What evidence do you have for female poisoners/mutilators?

Holmes confessed. Torture devices were recovered from his hotel.

Holmes had access to a full arsenal of poisons. He ran a chemist shop and a murder hotel. He used his own poisonous gases to kill people in places in the hotel and then he would butcher them. He would torture others. He would have access to cadavers and would use them in insurance scams for money making and selling the bones to medical schools. I doubt there wasn't anything that man didn't do to his victims.

I'll have to look through that vast list of women including mutilators to find their other methods. Saltykova makes a good candidate. She tortured and mutilated 100+ women.

Anyway, you have Holmes. So that puts to rest the idea mutilators can't be poisoners.

[Sam Flynn]

Holmes had access to a full arsenal of poisons. He ran a chemist shop and a murder hotel. He used his own poisonous gases to kill people in places in the hotel and then he would butcher them. He would torture others. He would have access to cadavers and would use them in insurance scams for money making and selling the bones to medical schools.

...which gives us some insight as to his motives. The poisonings/gassings were a means to an end, and the same could be argued in the case of Kłosowski (e.g. monetary gain and/or bumping off one "wife" so he could move on to another). By contrast, the mutilations and eviscerations perpetrated by Jack the Ripper seem to have been largely an end in themselves.

[Batman]

...which gives us some insight as to his motives. The poisonings/gassings were a means to an end, and the same could be argued in the case of Kłosowski (e.g. monetary gain and/or bumping off one "wife" so he could move on to another). By contrast, the mutilations and eviscerations perpetrated by Jack the Ripper seem to have been largely an end in themselves.

Holmes also tortured people. He gassed some. He chloroformed others. His torture devices obviously not just for show.

Jack took away body parts with him. So the ripping was a means to an end. To harvest body parts.

In fact, as previously stated, it still hasn't been ruled out that JtR was procuring wombs for commercial exploitation. Which would make him more like Holmes.

[John G]

Holmes confessed. Torture devices were recovered from his hotel.

Holmes had access to a full arsenal of poisons. He ran a chemist shop and a murder hotel. He used his own poisonous gases to kill people in places in the hotel and then he would butcher them. He would torture others. He would have access to cadavers and would use them in insurance scams for money making and selling the bones to medical schools. I doubt there wasn't anything that man didn't do to his victims.

I'll have to look through that vast list of women including mutilators to find their other methods. Saltykova makes a good candidate. She tortured and mutilated 100+ women.

Anyway, you have Holmes. So that puts to rest the idea mutilators can't be poisoners.

There's no proof he killed anyone. He claimed 27 victims, but considering some of those individuals were still alive he was hardly reliable! He's presumed to have killed 9 people, one may have been by poisoning. Where's the evidence he mutilated anyone? See: http://mysteriouschicago.com/new-master-list-of-hh

[Sam Flynn]

Jack took away body parts with him. So the ripping was a means to an end. To harvest body parts.

So, to bring this back to Klosowski, what did he do with his victims' bodies after he'd poisoned them?

In fact, as previously stated, it still hasn't been ruled out that JtR was procuring wombs for commercial exploitation. Which would make him more like Holmes.

But not like Klosowski.

[Batman]

There's no proof he killed anyone.

Wow, some people will go a long way to try and dissuade themselves that Chapman can't be a mutilator and a poisoner if he wanted to be, but being in denial that there is any evidence H.H. Holmes murdered anyone is a pretty extreme length to go to do that.

So a confession to 27 murders isn't sufficient? Geyer was tracking him as he was leaving bodies behind in his wake fleeing his murder hotel. Geyer was uncovering them.

Also this idea generally one is either a conman or serial killer is a false dichotomy obviously. They can be both.

[Batman]

So, to bring this back to Klosowski, what did he do with his victims' bodies after he'd poisoned them?
But not like Klosowski.

I understood something at least a week ago which still seems to have totally escaped you since if you asking these questions or trying to make a 'point'.

If Dennis Rader had left no evidence behind that he was BTK and if Dennis Rader was suspected of being BTK, you would be asking did Dennis Rader strangle his victims after he abused them at work and freed the dogs of women targets so that he had an excuse as a compliance officer to take them to the vets to destroy them?

The answer would no, he didn't strangle them.

Aha, says, you, therefore he is not like BTK.

Of course, this is not like BTK.

However he is BTK.

So the question/point has FAILED clearly to accurately segregate potential candidates for BTK.

Your question/point ruled him out.

Meaning you can't ever use a difference in MO or Signature to rule anyone out.

If you don't understand this (or anyone else for that matter) then we can go through it step by step. Which part of the above statement do you have trouble with exactly?

[Sam Flynn]

I understood something at least a week ago which still seems to have totally escaped you since if you asking these questions or trying to make a 'point'....

Which part of the above statement do you have trouble with exactly?

Mainly, your adversarial and patronising tone.