Interesting article on George

[Sam Flynn]

According to Philip Sugden, Chapman/ Klosowski was probably living in Cable Street in the Autumn of 1888, as he is listed in the Post Office London Directory of 1889, as living at the Cable Street address.

Hi Nats,

True enough, but whether that places him there in the Autumn of 1888, or the Winter of 1888, I can't be sure.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

True enough, but whether that places him there in the Autumn of 1888, or the Winter of 1888, I can't be sure.

Quite so Sam.

[protohistorian]

Hi Nats,

True enough, but whether that places him there in the Autumn of 1888, or the Winter of 1888, I can't be sure.

I have to ask for more help here. I am in Kansas and goole earth wont do enough to help me establish spatial relationships between the places in this post, will someone have pity on me and give me some scope of the distances we are talking about here. Thank You and Live Strong Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Quite so Sam.

Actually, Nats, I can be a little more specific. Having tried, and failed miserably, to find an actual copy of the Directory, I can at least reveal when it was being printed. I found the info in this article from the Times of 17th December 1888:



It's clear that entries were being accepted at least as late as Dec 1st 1888, and possibly up until the 14th of that month. Note that Sir Charles Warren's resignation gets a mention, too - which is nice!

[Sam Flynn]

Iwill someone have pity on me and give me some scope of the distances we are talking about here.

The simple answer is "not far", Dave. Nothing in the East End was - the biggest distance we're talking about would be of the order of a 40 minute walk (West India Dock Rd to Cable Street or George Yard).

However, the point that people often miss about the Ripper case is that there were plenty of prostitutes all over the East End - there was no need for someone living in W India Dock Road to traipse all the way to the centre of Spitalfields, then fan out in various directions to find a likely victim.

Equally, there would have been no need for Klosowski to have strayed too far from Cable Street either. Although this was only some 12-13 minutes' walk away from (say) Dorset Street, there would have been plenty of potential victims close enough to allow a quick getaway in the area south of Whitechapel Road. Yet, apart from Liz Stride, the Ripper seems to have operated north of the Whitechapel Road/Whitechapel High Street/Aldgate axis at all times during the Autumn of 1888.

[Roy Corduroy]

Klosowski seems to have lived in Poplar in 1888, with the Radin family.

Poplar 88. That rings a bell

[Sam Flynn]

Poplar 88. That rings a bell

Indeed Roy - the "Poplar Murder". Rose Mylett, strangled with a cord in late December 1888. Perhaps Klosowski was peed off because the PO Directory spelt his name wrongly

[protohistorian]

thank you

The simple answer is "not far", Dave. Nothing in the East End was - the biggest distance we're talking about would be of the order of a 40 minute walk (West India Dock Rd to Cable Street or George Yard).

However, the point that people often miss about the Ripper case is that there were plenty of prostitutes all over the East End - there was no need for someone living in W India Dock Road to traipse all the way to the centre of Spitalfields, then fan out in various directions to find a likely victim.

Equally, there would have been no need for Klosowski to have strayed too far from Cable Street either. Although this was only some 12-13 minutes' walk away from (say) Dorset Street, there would have been plenty of potential victims close enough to allow a quick getaway in the area south of Whitechapel Road. Yet, apart from Liz Stride, the Ripper seems to have operated north of the Whitechapel Road/Whitechapel High Street/Aldgate axis at all times during the Autumn of 1888.

I think that link may never be forthcoming, it could be such a small detail and we are so far removed. Thanks for scale though Live Strong Dave

[protohistorian]

I think that link may never be forthcoming, it could be such a small detail and we are so far removed. Thanks for scale though Live Strong Dave

Would there be a way of determining where immigrant populations clustered. A modern analog of this would be a chinatown or little Italy. If there was an inordinate population of polish speakers in Spitalfields, it is a plausible explanation why someone might walk 40 minutes to get there. As a rule, the most fluent language is the one preferred by bilinguals because it offers the ability to confer the most nuanced information. I fully realize this is a point that is not "proveable" with historical fact, but It would be another aspect of George's behavior that would fit a modern data set. Thank you all for your help, and live strong Dave

[Mitch Rowe]

Check the press articles concerning chapman and maybe you will find that is where Abberline was getting his info. Abberline was retired and his opinion had nothing to do with Scotland Yards opinion. He tells you its just a hunch of his. I dont think Abberline makes a very good case for Chapman one way or the other. The most important thing he does for me is that confirmation that no one knew. Even the story wreaks of an old man who was never able to find an answer. It had to haunt him. Maybe without even knowing it his mind needed to find the ripper? Maybe Chapman helped him with that?

[Sam Flynn]

Would there be a way of determining where immigrant populations clustered.

It's pretty well mapped out, Dave.

There were immigrant Poles - not all Jewish: Klosowski wasn't - all over the poorer parts of the East End. When Klosowski first came to England (in late 1887 or the first half of 1888: we don't know for certain), he initially settled - as did many immigrants - in the Docklands area, specifically West India Dock. There he lived with, and worked for, another immigrant Pole, Abraham Radin.

Five months or so later (mid-to-end 1888), Klosowski seems to have moved to Cable Street in St George's East, where again there was a substantial concentration of Polish immigrants. Not long after he'd married Lucie Baderski in 1889, and after a brief stay in Commercial Street (Whitechapel), she and Klosowski moved to Greenfield Street, Mile End.

Greenfield Street was also popular with immigrant Eastern Europeans who'd settled in East London, and seems to hold the peculiar accolade of being the street which housed the most Ripper suspects at one time or another.

[Mayerling]

Can any of you tell me if there was a cafe type restaurant in the East End in 1888 called "the Warsaw Restaurant"? It played a role in another famous murder case in 1910-1911 (the Steinie Morrison Case), as the place that the victim (Leon Beron) and his friends used to hang out in. Beron and his friends were Jews, but were from Polish territories (Poland was split between Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the German Empire until 1918). And while Chapman/Klosowski was a Polish Catholic, he appears (oddly enough) to have had Jewish friends.

This is just a matter of idle curiosity. It would not bring us closer to the solution of the murders in Whitechape in 1888, but I just wonder since everyone is looking for a spot in the East End where Poles congregated if this restaurant might have been a possibility.

Jeff

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jeff

The Warsaw Kosher Restaurant was located at 32 Osborn Street Whitechapel. I cannot say whether it was operating in 1888, perhaps someone with access to the Goads Map could check.

Below is what I found on a quick Google :


Beron wasn’t universally loved – as a slum landlord he was unlikely to be. He owned nine decaying houses in Russell Court, Stepney, which provided him with 10 shillings (50p) a week, enough to pay his own two shillings rent on 133 Jubilee Street, Stepney, and provide the one and sixpence a day for his meals
at the Warsaw Kosher Restaurant at 32 Osborn Street, Whitechapel.

[Mayerling]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the fast response. Again it is not likely to settle anything, but it sounds like it might be a spot...but then again, it was a Kosher Restaurant. Unless Koslowski actually liked an occasional kosher meal he may not have been willing to go to such a place.

As for Beron, I had heard he was not the most beloved person in Whitechapel in 1910. In fact there are rumors that his murder might have been linked to him being a police "narc" regarding anarchist activity or foreign agent activity in the East End (this was the period of the "Siege of Sidney Street", although most students of the Morrison Case tend to discard that scenario - Leon flashed money around and he appears to have been robbed when killed).

Thanks again - maybe someone can now check it out.

Jeff

[Natalie Severn]

Chapman /Klosowski had actually studied the science of surgery under the senior surgeon in Zvolen, Poland and spent a further two years as an assistant surgeon or "feldscher" spending the last quarter of 1885 attending a practical course in surgery at the Praga Hospital in Warsaw . But like many immigrants,he was probably unable to find work that matched his training in Poland when he arrived in the UK.He therefore began work as a "hairdresser" with the Radans, possibly since barbers and surgeons had once had equal entitlement to treat wounds and change bandages.When he moved to Cable Street,which was likely to have been in the mid-latter part of 1888 as Sam suggests, he had set himself up in his own hairdressing business.
What has always intrigued me is the proximity of Cable Street to Pinchin Street since it was there that the Pinchin Street headless torso was found around same period in 1888. Cable Street too is just a few minutes walk from Berner Street---now called Henriques Street--where the Stride murder happened.
Its a possibility that Chapman was not only acquiring multiple female partners when he arrived in the UK and adopting multiple names, but he could also have been into "multitasking" ,in his case, cutting hair during the day,and cutting up corpses by night---misguidedly believing he could keep his hand in regarding his "surgery training".He was certainly proven to be a chillingly cool and heartless killer, totally without a conscience and may have enjoyed his days watching the senior surgeon back home opening up bodies in the operating theatre and felt the urge to have a go himself .