Interesting article on George

[HelenaWojtczak]

As you were - I've now found "Tymenitsa" (as written in the trial transcript) was actually "Tymienica Stara" - or "Old Tymienica". It's actually pronounced "Tim-yen-its-ka", so the Old Bailey scribe didn't do a bad job of transliterating it after all.

May I correct you please?

It's actually pronounced "Tim-yen-eet-sa", there is no K. (C in Polish is pronounced "TS" as in "cats".)

[Natalie Severn]

Hi missmarple

Actually I think rather than being a sadist, George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) just didn't care. I don't think he killed his common law wives for the pleasure of it. He did it for gain. He was, in short, a cold and calculating killer but I don't necessarily think he got his jollies off doing it. There's a better case to be made I think that whomever was Jack the Ripper, and I don't believe that was Chapman, derived some sort of pleasure from mutilating his victims.

Chris

I realise you are addressing Miss Marple here Chris,however I couldnt help but notice the following anomaly in your statement ,

"HE DID IT FOR GAIN"

I would like to ask you what you believe he would have "GAINED" from killing his 19 year old "bride" of 12 months,Maud Marsh ,who had been one of his barmaids and was the last victim in his series of poisonings.

Moreover, Maud"s father was a labourer and the family were very poor so how did he gain financially?

Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I have here the book by H.L, Adam entitled The Trial of George Chapman that contains evidence from the official Criminal Court Session papers of 1902/ 03 as well as a verbatim transcript of the judge"s summing up.

NOBODY BUT NOBODY suggests where Chapman was living OR working in 1888 EXCEPT for Wolff Levisohn who clearly states [see page 201 of above book] that

"HE MET THE ACCUSED IN A SHOP UNDER THE WHITE HART PUBLIC HOUSE,89 HIGH STREET,WHITECHAPEL in 1888."


While its true that Mrs Radin states in 1903 that Klosowski/Chapman lodged with her family for "FIVE MONTHS ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO" this does not exclude his working at the shop under the WHITE HART for the other seven months for the REST OF 1888,if, in fact, it was in 1888 that Chapman /Klosowski lived and worked at her then address.
The White Hart on Whitechapel High Street is and was then in 1888 at the corner of GEORGE YARD where Martha Tabram was murdered in August 1888.Its a pretty unusual coincidence for a serial killer like Chapman to have been living at one point in 1888 on the door step of the Martha Tabram if indeed there was another serial killer operating just a few yards away.
And not only that but in September 1889 yet another serial killer was discovered to be at large directly opposite to where Klosowski /Chapman was by then living...... at 126 Cable Street.....at a barber shop address just yards from where the Pinchin Street Torso was found in September 1889 .
Moreover, this Cable Street address of 1889 is corroborated in the trial transcripts by both the Baderski siblings.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi All,
Chapman was a sadist who abused his wives. He married them for financial gain and poisoned them when he wanted to dispose of them, and move on. The ripper did not kill for financial gain and the injuries to the bodies were done after death. There was no incentive for Chapman to pointlessly butcher prostitutes, there was nothing in it for him. His motivation was different, he was probably a bully and a coward, hence the poisoning. Miss Marple

Hi missmarple

Actually I think rather than being a sadist, George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) just didn't care. I don't think he killed his common law wives for the pleasure of it. He did it for gain. He was, in short, a cold and calculating killer but I don't necessarily think he got his jollies off doing it. There's a better case to be made I think that whomever was Jack the Ripper, and I don't believe that was Chapman, derived some sort of pleasure from mutilating his victims.

Chris

[Sam Flynn]

Mrs Ethel Radin ,was his landlady for FIVE MONTHS only and she stated she was living in West India Dock Road ,"about 15 years ago when he lodged with her for five months.If indeed he lodged with her for five months in 1888 -----what about the other 7 months of the year? Where did he live after that?

He moved, evidently, from the Docklands area further north. Logically, Cable Street - lots of Yiddish and Polish speakers there - would have been a natural place to gravitate after leaving the Radins' house (if not their employ). Some time later he pushes further north again - perhaps to the White Hart. Later still, maybe because he's assimilating a little better, it's off to Green[field] Street - he was still working at the White Hart, then, I recall - and, after that, a comparatively short hop to Cranbrook Street.

We don't have any specific dates, alas, but the journey suggested above is logically consistent - in fact, it makes perfect sense, even if I say so myself.

[Sam Flynn]

But here Sam you are WRONG and to keep on saying there were "others about "who spoke about where he was in 1888" is untrue.

No, it's not. I don't lie, and tend not to delude myself either.

So do us all a favour and name these characters.

I have, on another thread.

[Natalie Severn]

But here Sam you are WRONG and to keep on saying there were "others about "who spoke about where he was in 1888" is untrue.So do us all a favour and name these characters.One thing is for certain there were no relatives of Lucy Baderski in England until the Summer of 1889,they were still in Poland.
And nobody else who knew him was anywhere near Whitechapel in 1888. Mrs Ethel Radin ,was his landlady for FIVE MONTHS only and she stated she was living in West India Dock Road ,"about 15 years ago when he lodged with her for five months.If indeed he lodged with her for five months in 1888 -----what about the other 7 months of the year? Where did he live after that?

[Sam Flynn]

However,at his trial ,Wolff Levisohn,a traveller in hair products, stated he first met him in 1888 when he was working in a shop under the White Hart Public House,89 Whitechapel High Street. That is the basement at the corner of George Yard where Martha Tabram was murdered.

And everybody else who knew him at the time - including Klosowski's landlady and immediate family - present a timeline that doesn't feasibly place him in the White Hart until 1889/90. Levisohn, as you point out, was a travelling salesman who only saw Klosowski intermittently in the course of his job.

Just giving the full picture, Nats. It's important that we keep a balance.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Steve,
I dont think there is any proof that he lodged " in the same house" as Martha was killed in.
However,at his trial ,Wolff Levisohn,a traveller in hair products, stated he first met him in 1888 when he was working in a shop under the White Hart Public House,89 Whitechapel High Street.That is the basement at the corner of George Yard where Martha Tabram was murdered.
Best
Norma

[stevesneer]

A snippet from The Pall Mall Gazette may be of interest c/o Sourcebook
[ATTACH]1105[/ATTACH]
That's not Dids at the bottom just my mitts taking the photo in semi darkness!

donald rumbelow and other famous r'ologists state he lodged above the white hart pub in a room at the top of the staircase martha tabram was stabbed 39 times to both breasts and vagina..this happened the weekend b4 the first c5 victim nicholls...coincidence?all other suspects are disputed to not even been in the country etc but sk was sleeping within feet of martha as she was murdered or possibly commiting the act!.after this he was residing at 126 cable street with lucy baderski and his new g'friend.
if this is fabricated we may as well stop rippering as its all based on lies if so.hes the only suspect with any substance at all!!

[protohistorian]

Remember also that after poisoning his wives, he never confessed to the crimes, going to the gallows without admitting that he had killed them. As far as he was concerned, he was making out that they died of some illness. This also shows the callousness of the man.

Chris

or very detached from reality!

[protohistorian]

He was a foreigner of lower class background. As of this date, he would not have been able to qualify as a surgeon in England. There were probably a number of such men who had been feldschers or some type of doctor in Eastern Europe and who were unable to practise as medical men in their adoptive country.


Chris

No doubt there were many. In and of itself Chapman's position in London does not "prove" anything, but the data could suggest that Chapman's position in London was not all he had hoped for.

[ChrisGeorge]

A failure in his mind may not have a presentation for outside observer. Would you be happy to have spent 5 yrs only to end up cutting hair. I believe it would be fair to say that his internal assessment of himself was substancilly less than posive.

He was a foreigner of lower class background. As of this date, he would not have been able to qualify as a surgeon in England. There were probably a number of such men who had been feldschers or some type of doctor in Eastern Europe and who were unable to practise as medical men in their adoptive country.


Chris

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Natalie,

Had he killed his three wives in that manner he might have had some serious "splainin" to do. "That poor Mr. Chapman has the worst luck with his wives. Someone keeps cutting their throats and mutilating them. Poor man."

c.d.

Remember also that after poisoning his wives, he never confessed to the crimes, going to the gallows without admitting that he had killed them. As far as he was concerned, he was making out that they died of some illness. This also shows the callousness of the man.

Chris

[protohistorian]

do you suppose that is what he was aiming for?

hang on-lets stick to facts rather than fantasy---Philip Sugden"s research revealed he passed his five year apprenticeship in an exemplary way and went on to work as an "assistant surgeon or feldscher for a futher two years after which he took a course in practical surgery---at Praga Hospital in Warsaw.

A failure in his mind may not have a presentation for outside observer. Would you be happy to have spent 5 yrs only to end up cutting hair. I believe it would be fair to say that his internal assessment of himself was substancilly less than posive.