Interesting article on George

[Natalie Severn]

Yep good point Nats. .in fact there was probably such a diversity of creeds/nationalities etc around at the time..he could have been practically anything and still blended in!
Suz

The thing that stops me over Chapman is the complete contrast between his method of killing his wives/girlfriends and this earlier spate of killing that focused on throat cutting followed by mutilation.
Best
Nats

[Fisherman]

...and so it should, Natalie!

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

The thing that stops me going for Severin is that one must very, very selectively pick and choose witness statements to make a case for him, discarding nearly everything else.

Mike

[c.d.]

The thing that stops me over Chapman is the complete contrast between his method of killing his wives/girlfriends and this earlier spate of killing that focused on throat cutting followed by mutilation.
Best
Nats

Hi Natalie,

Had he killed his three wives in that manner he might have had some serious "splainin" to do. "That poor Mr. Chapman has the worst luck with his wives. Someone keeps cutting their throats and mutilating them. Poor man."

c.d.

[c.d.]

The thing that stops me going for Severin is that one must very, very selectively pick and choose witness statements to make a case for him, discarding nearly everything else.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Could you elaborate on that? Thanks.

c.d.

[denn034]

Not Only Computer Generated Photo!

Yeah, that composite computer generated photo from the witness descriptions can be seen as looking like Klosowski but, Trevor Marriott also created a computer generated photo that looks like Carl Feigenbaum that I've included.

[Dan Norder]

Hi denn034,

First off, that image was not as far as I understand it an attempt to show what Jack the Ripper looked like, but an artistic interpretation using photofit software to show what Feigenbaum looked like, based upon descriptions of Fiegenbaum in U.S. newspapers and not Ripper witness statements.

On top of that, I don't think it necessarily does look like Feigenbaum. The illustrations from old newspaper articles that Kelly and I turned up for Wolf Vanderlinden's article on Feigenbaum in Ripper Notes #28 look nothing like that. Of course, they don't look a whole lot like each other either, which only goes to show how poor some illustrations can be even working off a photo, illustrations based upon interpretations of witness descriptions are even less likely to be accurate.

Whatever the odds are that the earlier photofit might look like Jack the Ripper (slim to none), this image of Feigenbaum is even less likely to show Jack as he was.

[protohistorian]

Hi v-
well George C aka Klowsowski is an interesting chap but I can't go with the Hairdresser/Sweeney link here- I go with Sam here that the fact that he wasn't living in the area and therefore wasn't a trusted regular/local....apart from a lot of other things doesn't -for me- put him in the frame!

c.d. will check that Sugden ref

Suzi x

Sweeny Todd is a poor way of viewing the chapman scenario I believe. I would think a perhaps more effective viewing of Chapman would be 1. having a well developed psychopathology, targeted against women, who had medical training, but perhaps insufficient training to secure work in this regard. Even in the late victorian era barbers would routinely function as uncertified medical personel, particularly to the poor. Being a barber may have been the only work he could secure with the particular skillset he had, and even at that , he would have been forced by his socio-economic situation to employ such skills as he may have possessed within the poorer districts. If we assume he wished to make the most of his prior skill set, he would have been forced by the social context of Victorian society to the poor, periphery to employ those skills, and therefore would have a contextual motivation into spitalfields.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi PH,

If we assume he wished to make the most of his prior skill set, he would have been forced by the social context of Victorian society to the poor, periphery to employ those skills, and therefore would have a contextual motivation into spitalfields.

What was it that would have motivated him to move to Spitalfields especially? West India Dock Road was no more or less marginalised in the context of Victorian society than most other parts of the East End, Spitalfields included. Unless I misunderstood the point you made...

(Good post, nonetheless.)

[protohistorian]

Hi PH,What was it that would have motivated him to move to Spitalfields especially? West India Dock Road was no more or less marginalised in the context of Victorian society than most other parts of the East End, Spitalfields included. Unless I misunderstood the point you made...

(Good post, nonetheless.)

This could be something as simple and unverifable as cheap rent in a building from which he could work. This idead becomes more interesting if we reexamine the FBI's geographical profile which asserts that the killer eithier worked or lived on Flower and Dean street. Assuming that this arrangement was found to be exceptable within the mind of chapman, it would also fit handily into his later movement into the Geo. Yard buildings. I suspect however that what would suffice as proof of this to our modern mind will never be found, as even in 1888 it would have been a peice of minutia, and would likely belong in the poorest class of surviving historical information. Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dave,

if we reexamine the FBI's geographical profile which asserts that the killer eithier worked or lived on Flower and Dean street. Assuming that this arrangement was found to be exceptable within the mind of chapman, it would also fit handily into his later movement into the Geo. Yard buildings.

Klosowski never lived at George Yard Buildings. He worked in the basement of the White Hart public house, which was around the corner from the southern end of George Yard (on Whitechapel High Street), but not in George Yard itself.

Wolf Levissohn - a travelling salesman - was the only witness to have located Klosowski in the White Hart in 1888, but his testimony is questionable on this, and other, points. Abberline, unfortunately, seems to have picked up on this and compounded a probable error.

Two key witnesses - Klosowski's own brother in law Stanislaus Baderski, and Klosowski's colleague George Sterman (apparently also working at the White Hart), both locate him in the White Hart in 1890, but not before.

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,Klosowski never lived at George Yard Buildings. He worked in the basement of the White Hart public house, which was around the corner from the southern end of George Yard (on Whitechapel High Street), but not in George Yard itself.

Wolf Levissohn - a travelling salesman - was the only witness to have located Klosowski in the White Hart in 1888, but his testimony is questionable on this, and other, points. Abberline, unfortunately, seems to have picked up on this and compounded a probable error.

Two key witnesses - Klosowski's own brother in law Stanislaus Baderski, and Klosowski's colleague George Sterman (apparently also working at the White Hart), both locate him in the White Hart in 1890, but not before.

What I was aiming at is the idea that if a work presence in 1888 was seen as a positive for any reason, one would expect that at a later time he would have a reason to again frequent that area. It may be that it is this second more formilized reason for being in spitalfields that we are detecting. Live Strong Dave

[Sam Flynn]

As far as we know, Dave, there's no evidence at all that Klosowski had any connection with Spitalfields until well after the Ripper murders. By any reasonable reading of what evidence we have, Klosowski seems to have lived in Poplar in 1888, with the Radin family. He then worked at a barber shop in Cable Street around mid-1889, and stayed there with his wife until 1890, when they took lodgings in Commercial Street. He seems to have stayed there until 1890, when he began work at the shop under the White Hart, by which time he and his wife were living in Greenfield Street, Mile End.

[protohistorian]

As far as we know, Dave, there's no evidence at all that Klosowski had any connection with Spitalfields until well after the Ripper murders. By any reasonable reading of what evidence we have, Klosowski seems to have lived in Poplar in 1888, with the Radin family. He then worked at a barber shop in Cable Street around mid-1889, and stayed there with his wife until 1890, when they took lodgings in Commercial Street. He seems to have stayed there until 1890, when he began work at the shop under the White Hart, by which time he and his wife were living in Greenfield Street, Mile End.

Thanks Sam! I really appreciate the help. I am new to this field and I certainly need all the help I can get! Live Strong Dave

[Natalie Severn]

As far as we know, Dave, there's no evidence at all that Klosowski had any connection with Spitalfields until well after the Ripper murders. By any reasonable reading of what evidence we have, Klosowski seems to have lived in Poplar in 1888, with the Radin family. He then worked at a barber shop in Cable Street around mid-1889, and stayed there with his wife until 1890, when they took lodgings in Commercial Street. He seems to have stayed there until 1890, when he began work at the shop under the White Hart, by which time he and his wife were living in Greenfield Street, Mile End.

Sam,
According to Philip Sugden, Chapman/ Klosowski was probably living in Cable Street in the Autumn of 1888, as he is listed in the Post Office London Directory of 1889, as living at the Cable Street address.It usually takes time to be listed in such directories,so a listing in 1889 would suggest a likely earlier arrival there than 1889.
Cable Street is close to the railway where Pinchin Street is situated and the torsos were discovered ,as well as being quite close to Berner Street.