change in modus operandi

[perrymason]

Thanks for that Nats.

Ok.... so we have a stable chosen methodology that successfully kills twice(?)....and a delayed gratification scenario where he is a primary care giver and simultaneously, the murderer. Cruelty has to be a dominant trait I think. And taking the praise for the care he gave by those who witnessed his "devotion" would feed feelings of superiority. And he fakes or acts his concern....so he desires to be seen positively by the community.

Im just rambling...sorry...but Im trying to imagine a man who seems to be conscious of the opinion of others starting out being so callous he slits women open in public. The Ripper risked....did Severin? He knew pharmacology...he should have been more clever about it perhaps, but was it a great risk?

All the best Nats

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
I think you are mistaken.In order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1888 Post Office Directory HE HAD to be living at the address by December 2nd of the previous year----ie before December 2nd 1887.These were the regulations.

Nats, I posted quite recently a newspaper report for the PO Directory that said they were accepting updates up until the 14th December 1888, when the presses ran. The publishers prided themselves on its being the most up-to-date reference of its kind, so I hardly think they'd have imposed a deliberate restriction that would have made them one year out of date.

Besides, Klosowski appeared in the 1889 PO Directory.

[Natalie Severn]

Nats, I posted quite recently a newspaper report for the PO Directory that said they were accepting updates up until the 14th December 1888, when the presses ran. The publishers prided themselves on its being the most up-to-date reference of its kind, so I hardly think they'd have imposed a deliberate restriction that would have made them one year out of date.

Besides, Klosowski appeared in the 1889 PO Directory.

Sam,
Lets try to get this straight:

The Post Office London Directory Lists Radin in 70 West India Dock Road ONLY in 1888.Therefore, if Severin Klosowski lived with the Radan"s there,as Mrs Radan said he did at his trial in 1903,then he too lived there in 1888.Mrs Radan said at his trial that he lived with them there for "five months".So at some point in 1888 Severin was living with the Radans for five months of that year

In order for them to have been included for an 1888 entry,their names had to be placed by 14th December 1887 AT THE VERY LATEST.
Therefore Mr and Mrs Radan must have been living there from at latest, 14th December 1887 through the year.Severin must have been living there for five months before December 14th 1888, because in order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1889 Post Office Directory,he had to have moved from West India Dock Road and to have been living at 126 Cable Street by December 14th of 1888.
Mrs Radan said this under oath at his trial and the Post Office Directory would not have invented these entries..

Best

[Sam Flynn]

The Post Office London Directory Lists Radin in 70 West India Dock Road ONLY in 1888. Severin... must also have lived there in 1888.

Fine - but we don't know when the Radins moved out, nor precisely when Klosowski moved in, for that matter.

Severin must have been living there five months before December 14th 1888 to be included in the 1889 PO Directory.

Correct, which is why I said that Klosowski might have moved in with the Radins in July 1888, for all we know (7 + 5 = 12, in "month-speak"). It fits perfectly well with the known facts - not that I'm suggesting we'll ever know for certain, nor even that he definitely moved in with the Radins in July '88. All I'm saying is that, whilst there is plenty of evidence that confirms Klosowski was in East London in 1888, we have no evidence at all that suggests he was there a year earlier.

[Natalie Severn]

Possible but such a tight squeeze that Sam!The Radans weren"t even likely to have been there in December 1888----they had already moved on.Its unlikely their lodger was allowed to stay with them right up to the last minute in December 1888.
In the meantime,there is no record whatsoever of him in Poland after February 1887,whereas there were lots of formal papers found on him from Poland up to and including February1887.So in fact an earlier arrival here is looking more likely than a later one.
Remember the date of his arrival here has always been thought to have been June 1887.And that certainly "fits" as you put it.It gives him time to prepare for coming here after he had paid his bills to the hospital at the end of February 1887 etc .
But no doubt all this can be found out by going to Southwark Police Courts at some point, where the court papers were held ---at least they were until recently,I believe.

[Sam Flynn]

In the meantime,there is no record whatsoever of him in Poland after February 1887

I daresay he may have lingered awhile after the last official documents - mainly certificates - were issued, and they're not much to go on. Let's face it, if someone were to base my biography on my certificates alone, they might assume - quite wrongly - that I didn't even exist for four years in the mid-1980s. After graduating, I bummed around with some friends, before reluctantly finding a "decent" job and moving out of London several months later. None of this is attested to by any pieces of paper still extant to my knowledge - I didn't feel such a sense of obligation to posterity that I kept receipts, pay-slips or utility bills from that "bohemian" phase upon my person. But I was there, all the same.

Klosowski might have done something similar. He might also have lingered awhile to plan his trip, to say goodbye to friends, colleagues and family. He might have spent some time in Germany (say), before heading to Bremen and deciding to sail to England. He might even have gone to the USA first.

All of this is speculation on my part, of course, but it's not beyond the bounds of probability. There are many, many scenarios that might "explain" Severin's absence from the record after the first quarter of 1887, and it's not at all axiomatic that he headed straight for London at that time.

[protohistorian]

You probably do not cart around certificates from your middle school either. These pieces of paper would have been very dear to Severin, as they represent a time in his life when he appeared to fit in. I dare say you also do not have a paper from the government asserting your "good boy" nature. These things played a significant role for Severin, and hence care was taken in keeping them for years. Analogs to you Sam, while amusing, are grossly innappropriate. If all people were the same, maybe less so, but as is....wrong. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I would definitely agree with Dave"s assessment above of the reasons for it to have been likely that Severin Klosowski would have been careful to keep all his papers from Poland,those post-1887 just as as those pre February 1887.In the complete absence of any post Feb 1887 papers it seems more than likely there were none to keep because wasnt there .
I would also point out that having done some research now into the formalities that existed , surrounding a person"s ID--in 1880"s Europe- including Eastern Europe,it is clear that in these countries generally there was a much greater amount of red tape concerning the documentation of each person"s life, than in the UK.So had he been in Germany or France, there would have been documented information on such a stay in those countries.
However,as it is we have Mrs Radan testifying under oath that he stayed with her and her family "for about five months" in 1888----information found in the Post Office Directory of 1888 gives the Radan"s that address for ONLY 1888.This address at 70 West India Dock Road was where Mrs Radan and her family are documented as living in 1888.It is an East End address and not that far from Severin"s later address ,where he was recorded as living, before December 14 1888 , ie according to Post Office Directory procedure.
Best

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Mike,

For information.

Severin Klosowski,aka George Chapman,murdered THREE women in the five years, between 1897 and the Autumn of 1902, by poisoning them slowly.The families of the victims were completely deceived-Bessie Taylor"s mother said,"she had never seen a better husband." Maud Marsh"s father is recorded as having been impressed by his son-in -law, at Chapman"s trial he said, "He used to come down and see me with Maud and I could see she was very happy with him.He treated her very well."
He poisoned by repeated doses of arsenic,so that the women literally wasted away.Their deaths recorded as Pthisis or tuberculosis.

We dont know why he began to poison his partners .He had lived with a number of wives/women previously by 1897, several of whom were around in 1903 to report on him.
It could have been some insane paranoia he had developed about them.

[protohistorian]

Thanks for that Nats.

Ok.... so we have a stable chosen methodology that successfully kills twice(?)....and a delayed gratification scenario where he is a primary care giver and simultaneously, the murderer. Cruelty has to be a dominant trait I think. And taking the praise for the care he gave by those who witnessed his "devotion" would feed feelings of superiority. And he fakes or acts his concern....so he desires to be seen positively by the community.

Im just rambling...sorry...but Im trying to imagine a man who seems to be conscious of the opinion of others starting out being so callous he slits women open in public. The Ripper risked....did Severin? He knew pharmacology...he should have been more clever about it perhaps, but was it a great risk?

All the best Nats

Yes Severin took great risks. He left a position at the Praga hospital (the best position he was known to have) to enlist in the Russian army. He up and left his native land for England for unknown reasons, he suggested to his wife that they have a live in menage a'toi, so yes Severin was a risk averse person. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

Hi Nats and David,

I like and respect both of you as always, but see no reason to pretend I believe a viable and probable suggestion is that Severin killed in very bloody public fashion.. and stuck his hands in the warm cavities he makes 3 times taking internal matter, and not much later in life changed that habit to become one of maliciously and incrementally killing women who werent unfortunates by slipping them poison.

I think what is being done is to believe that the acts that Jack the Ripper was accused of fit into a serial killer profile of men that were arrested and convicted of their deeds since perhaps what...the 1930"s? When were the first noteworthy samples of serial killers first on paper as study material?

A killer who kills is not complicated at all....the motive if revealed usually makes perfect sense and is general "madness" or something else easily understandable like robbery, lust or anarchistic perhaps. These murders....the 3 I believe were committed by one man or the same 2 or more men, ...are just the exposed iceberg....what was beneath them has a myriad of possible answers including that their death was for anarchistic principles. Something that you might try to forge a link with his later publican role if promoting Severin.

He was one of three named, and thought to be chief suspects, a poisoner and a man who kills himself a week or so after Marys death and leaves no hint of any guilt in a suicide letter, and a petty thief who it turns out...was in jail at the time.

Its a grim testimonial to the senior investigative personelle, and has now fostered some resentment from you 2 for my saying so.

That means I meant no disrespect, and I should concentrate on threads that to me, are seeking evidence of a bloody murderers life. Someone who I believe would have committed offenses with his knife(s) before the Ripper killings.

Best regards.

It is not a matter of shoehorning Severin in, rather a matter of more complete modern data suggests earlier violence on humans. That in concert with Severin's threats provide ample viability for Severin's consideration. There is ample evidence that Severin was moving toward full blown sociopathy at the time of immigration, that is pre rippings. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

Thanks for the background data on Severin Nats and David, and for your observations.

I guess its pretty clear that I relegated this man to tangential study only, and have yet to follow his particular path through the records. I did that when I learned he was convicted later of poisoning deaths. Its not objective research at all...I admit it, but it is the truth. Its that I tend to trust my intuitions in these kinds of matters...and although a nasty character, I still dont see "Jack" in the details you've provided.

I dont believe "Jack" was ever necessarily a married man for one. I think night crawlers that dont get noticed by spouses at some point...probably dont have any.

Best regards folks.

[protohistorian]

It is nothing to take personally friend. The phenomena is called linkage blindness and it is still a major operational feature within law enforcement. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

It is nothing to take personally friend. The phenomena is called linkage blindness and it is still a major operational feature within law enforcement. Respectfully Dave

Thanks for making me feel less guilty about doing so David...

I am unable to be granular when it comes to the various disorders that might lead to violent eruption as I dont have that specific knowledge base, so I tend to categorize generally.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

You probably do not cart around certificates from your middle school either. These pieces of paper would have been very dear to Severin

...exactly, Dave. Why should he have carted around any old spurious documentation after February 1887? Like, for example, a "Merry Christmas" letter addressed to him in Warsaw in December 1887; or a ticket purchased in Hamburg during May 1888 before boarding a ship to England.

I made those up, but it's just to reinforce my earlier point. The fact that we don't have any surviving Polish records from February 1887 does NOT mean that we can assert that he was in England shortly afterwards. It might simply mean that Severin felt that he had no records worthy of keeping from that period - it's even conceivable that he lost some.