change in modus operandi

[Malcolm X]

thanks Natalie

regards MALCOLM .....not Mike

[Natalie Severn]

thanks Natalie

regards MALCOLM .....not Mike

Sorry Malcolm -----sorry I wasnt paying attention .......

[halomanuk]

Chapman was always a poisoner from start to finish and multitasked at many 'occupations' from surgery to barbers to pub ownership..even his barbers shop that was successful was only because another of his 'wives' played the piano while the patron was shaved,and he soon got rid of that and moved to take the heat away from his poisoning of her.

[Ben]

Hi BB,

Let's consider that Hutch was not the Ripper and that the reason he came forward late with his evidence was either that he was away for the weekend and news hadn't reached him or that he was a married man seeking out Kelly for her services and he really didnt want this to become public knowledge.

I doubt very much that word of Kelly's murder hadn't reached Hutchinson by the evening of 12th November. Even if he was away for the weekend (which I doubt just as much) it's impossible to accept that he didn't hear of the murder from the newspapers or via word of mouth. The "married man" scenario is a little more plausible, but it doesn't satisfactorily explain why he came forward as soon as it became public knowledge that Sarah Lewis had seen someone loitering near the crime scene (which would have been Hutchinson himself according to his own statement).

Let's consider that he really followed her because he wanted to engage her services for himself once she had finished with her current customer

He wouldn't have had much luck in that regard if he'd spent all his money going down to Romford, as he claimed to have told her. Besdies which there was nothing to prevent him from checking again, periodically, once he'd left the scene, especially if he'd already demonstrated a willingness to wait for so long in miserable conditions in the small hours of the morning. Sarah Lewis never mentioned hearing a peep from room #13 once she'd entered the court at 2:30am, and Mary Cox also observed that there were no lights and no noise from the room when she returned for the last time at 3.00am. Bit odd, if Kelly was suppoed to be ensconsed in there with "Mr. Astrakhan" at that time. Silence and no lights is a pretty reasonable indication that she wasn't entertaining a client at that time.

Of course Severin/JtR could not risk leaving with someone outside...he may even have noticed the man following them and suspect that he had already been seen

But even before that, we'd need to accept that Severin/JTR/Astrakhan cornered himself in a one-exit court in the full and certain knowledge that a potential witness, plain clothes copper, informer, or potential vigilance committee member had clocked him at close quarters and tailed him back to the court.

What if Hutch had become suspicious and gone to Mary's window to find out if she was ok?

In the press versions of Hutchinson's account, he claimed to have ventured into the court and listened for signs of activity outside her window.

The more i think about Hutch the more i think of him as a married man reluctant to come forward and have his association with a prostitute become public knowledge

But he did make it public knowledge. He approached the police, and then gave his story to "a reporter" despite the fact that he was under no obligation to do so. I don't really buy the "struggling with his conscience" suggestion. Too coincidental that his "conscience" was salved the moment in transpired that a man was seen loitering near the crime scene at the same time Hutchinson would later claim he was there.

I dont think it plausible that he would come forward as the Ripper. The Ripper had been so close to capture before...i dont think he would ever bring himself into the notice of anyone

It's not implausible or unlikely. Other serial killers have injected themselves into their own investigations after learning of independant evidence that could potentially incriminate them if they didn't "spike their guns in advance" first. Yes, the killer had been seen before, but there was no evidence that witness descriptions were being suppressed before 19th October. Besides which I've never heard of a serial killer who came forward with bogus "witness" evidence after every murder they're seen at. They do it when they feel like it, and where they perceive a particular advantage or thrill in doing so.

if he had heard the testimony that a man had been seen loitering, he could just have said, oh yes that was me, i followed them back there because the man was unusual looking but i left after five or ten minutes

...Which wouldn't have made much impact if he wished to incriminate the man (real or not) by conveying the impression that the suspicious man was staying the night. The trouble with "I waited for five minutes", is that it allowed for the possibility of someone to arrive after the Astrakhan man - not much good if Astrakhan man was the intended "fall guy". Hutchinson could not have known if he was seen by other witnesses, so he may have wished to account for other potential "Sarah Lewis'" too.

As the Ripper, it would have been grossly remiss for him to wait around like that where there were others coming and going before the murder wouldn't it?

No.

Waiting alone an hour before the murder is far less risky than spending time in company with your victim ten minutes before the discovery of the victim's body, which was ostensibly what the killer did at earlier crime scenes.

Best regards,
Ben

[halomanuk]

Why are we on about Hutchinson in a Chapman thread ?!

[Ben]

They'll try to pin it on me, Barry, but I didn't start it. Honest!

I think it originated from the suggestion that Klosowski may have been Astrakhan man, which isn't very likely, for reasons mentioned by Gareth on the podcast (with a nod to Jonathan for the reminder).

All the best,
Ben

[halomanuk]

I would be very doubtful on that front,i haven't listened to the Chapman podcast yet i am still working my way through.
If they try to pin it on you i will give them a slap Ben,you are one of the not so many on here from the 'before the crash' with the Casebook like me so fear not ..(unless they are bigger than me)..

[DVV]

Some people want to imagine Chapman in Mr Astrakhan clothes...
Just funny.
Then, if you laugh, they'll show you Chapman with his peaked cape - sailor man.
And still, we laugh.
Hutch or Lawende ?

Amitiés,
David

[babybird67]

hi Ben

thank you so much, firstly for READING my post as it was rather long lol, and secondly for taking the time to address some of my points with further information...all of which i will consider and respond to, but very good points, that i acknowledge.

To the other readers of the thread: sorry for bringing Hutch in so please don't blame Ben, it was my fault, because i had been thinking about it for a long time and then came other thoughts about Chapman.

bedtime here now. quarter past midnight so i had better go to bed before i turn into a pumpkin!



goodnight/good day all

bb x

[DVV]

Bedtime here now.

Indeed.

[Malcolm X]

They'll try to pin it on me, Barry, but I didn't start it. Honest!

I think it originated from the suggestion that Klosowski may have been Astrakhan man, which isn't very likely, for reasons mentioned by Gareth on the podcast (with a nod to Jonathan for the reminder).

All the best,
Ben

i dont have podcast, what did Sam say about LA DE DA

[Malcolm X]

Some people want to imagine Chapman in Mr Astrakhan clothes...
Just funny.
Then, if you laugh, they'll show you Chapman with his peaked cape - sailor man.
And still, we laugh.
Hutch or Lawende ?

Amitiés,
David

are you laughing at Sugden too, obviously you are

Chapman as Lawende's suspect isn't as rediculous at Flemingson, that really is weak, it's as weak as Maybrick!.........

[DVV]

Hi Malcolm,
don't worry about the podcast...
SK= Astakhan Man ???
I pay 3 rounds for anybody who looks like someone that doesn't exist.
Cheers.

[DVV]

are you laughing at Sugden too, obviously you are

Chapman as Lawende's suspect isn't as rediculous at Flemingson, that really is weak, it's as weak as Maybrick!.........

Hey Malcolm,
cool down, I never wrote a book about the Ripper...
And if you want to know, yes, Sugden is WRONG when he says that Hutch did influence Abberline for many years...
It was Phillips, or Baxter, not Hutch.
And that tells a lot, imo.

Think about it,
David

[DVV]

are you laughing at Sugden too, obviously you are

Chapman as Lawende's suspect isn't as rediculous at Flemingson, that really is weak, it's as weak as Maybrick!.........

You're wrong, simply.
Just check the age of the suspects.
You'll be the most ridiculous.
Nothing new.