change in modus operandi

[Natalie Severn]

Thats a good point....should it be that she was in fact killed by the Ripper fellow. If not...and as I suggest Liz doesnt belong either, after those 3 consecutive almost identical murders he might have done another almost identical one the following summer. There may be proof that the man that was nicknamed Jack the Ripper continued to kill in almost the exact same way after Mary Kelly was killed by someone else.

Salut mon amis

Mike,
I am quite sure he kept his hand in with the knife- so to speak.As I have said before,I think it very likely that Severin was not a poisoner by preference and the wife killings that began in 1895 were killings of expediency.I suspect he was killing "various unknowns" and "unfortunates" that he met in his pubs or on Whitechapel"s , or Southwark"s Streets right up until 1902 and that the remains were carefully and secretly disposed of..

Dasve,
Regarding him having reached satiety with the murder of Mary Kelly.It is now an accepted phenomenon that an addict can suddenly tire of the addiction and it vanishes for good.So IF Severin killed and mutilated as a mostly compulsive act,he could have finished needing to have that strange journey with the murder of Mary Kelly.

[protohistorian]

Mike,
I am quite sure he kept his hand in with the knife- so to speak.As I have said before,I think it very likely that Severin was not a poisoner by preference and the wife killings that began in 1895 were killings of expediency.I suspect he was killing "various unknowns" and "unfortunates" that he met in his pubs or on Whitechapel"s , or Southwark"s Streets right up until 1902 and that the remains were carefully and secretly disposed of..

Dasve,
Regarding him having reached satiety with the murder of Mary Kelly.It is now an accepted phenomenon that an addict can suddenly tire of the addiction and it vanishes for good.So IF Severin killed and mutilated as a mostly compulsive act,he could have finished needing to have that strange journey with the murder of Mary Kelly.

It is not that the need disappears Nats, it is channeled into socially constructed behaviors, or rarely, moved into obsolescents by a change in world view. Either way however, yes, it is possible that the drive was redirected or ceased. P.S. Nat's I saw the post where you admit to oggleing egyptians. They ust want to be respected for their mind. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Ah----but a thing of beauty is a joy forever Dave!

I can quite follow the thinking regarding compulsive behaviour suddenly not holding its old attraction too.

[perrymason]

I can quite follow the thinking regarding compulsive behaviour suddenly not holding its old attraction too.

Hi Natalie,

The above made me consider to what extent addiction should be factored in with this type of killer, not all sociopaths can supress the desire for what feelings he or she derives from violent acts. The core murders that best fit with a killer having a nomme de plume including "Ripper"meant the killer handled warm bloody organs after excising them himself. I think there may be a visceral addiction indicated...the actual textures, and smells..the sight of blood spraying or flowing...

Unique tactile sensations as well as demon satisfying ones.

Its why I resist the notion that a man who slowly kills a "loved" one with poison...(sound familiar only with flipped genders?)...would be likely to have been someone that in early evolutions of his psychosis was extremely violent physically.

Can you unlearn a need or desire to hurt people physically?

Both you and David seem to think that they can for whatever reason change, but I submit that is based on perceptions of serial killer studies that reveal some killers do kill both physically and strategically. Guys that were caught and spoke of their feelings honestly... to be of the utmost assistance to the interviewer.

Serial killers have egos, maybe even feelings of guilt or remorse, but theres no reason to think that data coming only from the source convicted of the crimes is 100% honest or accurate.

Thats why I like to use the 10 foot pole rule with most profiling data.

My best regards Norma. xox

[Natalie Severn]

Michael,
I think I will have to let Dave answer this one.I dont know the answer to it I am afraid.
Cheers
Nats

[protohistorian]

If we except the notion of an "addiction" to blood or gore we immediately encounter a problem. Just as with chemical addicts, the addiction would need maintenance. With no external force to supply change, we should expect many more "rippings". The probability is that blood and gore were neutral values in the killers mind, that is they we neither preferred (motivational) or negative perceived (restraining). To the 21st century mind it is a bit odd, but even today, people who frequently handle blood and gore do not place + or - values on it. It is consequential in certain types of activities, like hunting deer or prostitutes. To assert a positive value immediately entails at least a static pace of rippings, or quite possibly an increase. To assert a negative value, is to say that gore in some method, acted as a restraining factor, which MJK denies strongly. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

If we except the notion of an "addiction" to blood or gore we immediately encounter a problem. Just as with chemical addicts, the addiction would need maintenance. With no external force to supply change, we should expect many more "rippings". The probability is that blood and gore were neutral values in the killers mind, that is they we neither preferred (motivational) or negative perceived (restraining). To the 21st century mind it is a bit odd, but even today, people who frequently handle blood and gore do not place + or - values on it. It is consequential in certain types of activities, like hunting deer or prostitutes. To assert a positive value immediately entails at least a static pace of rippings, or quite possibly an increase. To assert a negative value, is to say that gore in some method, acted as a restraining factor, which MJK denies strongly. Respectfully Dave

Hi David,

That makes sense, but I do have a scenario where I think an addiction to blood and gore might be met on a daily basis, without murder as a required element.

Its suggested in at least 3 Canonical deaths by the medical personnel that the killer exhibits some anatomical knowledge in his actions. Anyone working inside a hospital might get daily lessons on anatomy...and may desire to be the surgeon himself...but with practical lessons rather than through formal education he cannot afford. He might even get a chance some nights to cut cadavers a bit.

This sort of person could also access organ samples if a Teaching hospital.

What if you have a working class poor man working perhaps as a Janitor in a hospital, or an even more gruesome, area clinic, ... who has unnatural inclinations towards scenes of blood and gore, a lack of normal emotions like guilt, pity or compassion, and a decided interest in doing some cutting himself.

I could even add speculatively... with some circumstantial support found in the known evidence, that such a man might be game if approached and offered 20L for a female organ. There were 2 stories of an American Doctor that approached Teaching Hospitals the year before the murders offering to buy uteri at 20L each....as Sam Flynn once calculated, with an approximate modern equivalent value of 1500L Sterling. One hospital denied the story, one did not. I also do know of a "Dr to The Stars" if you will, that was in London at that time experimenting with prolonging life, with eternal life being his goal. He had many socialite patients and members of his "club", including a titled Carnarvon...in the basement of a hotel that gets demolished the year after the killings. His procedures involved the implantation of a uterus..in both male and female patients...thinking the link to longevity had bio-chemical foundations in the reproductive organs.

And the guy that works in a hospital might be easily missed if he dies or disappears after the spree is assumed over.

I think a profile like this is plausible myself.

Best regards David.

[protohistorian]

Plausible depending on the psyche of the person. Normative people have socially encoded value systems that prevent such behavior. These, as far as we know, are gathered between the ages of 4 and 13, in a formative period well known among humans. Such a person would show signs of impaired or missing restraint, relatively early, as situations arose which made the subject employ tainted value systems. For a normative person to engage in such activities implies significant contempt for established rules, in concert with an elevated sense of self worth. Both of these personality features would be developed enough for an outside observer to see. Once these two features pass the end of the formative stage they often accumulate other dysfunctional values based on experiential learning of the subject. Prolonged accumulation of such value systems frequently results in sociopathy, a condition where the subject no longer sees himself within a social system, but rather above it. These personalities rarely achieve anything close to stability, and as such vary widely in behaviors. Long term employment is usually an indicator that sociopathy has not yet formed, the same is true of longstanding, close, relationships. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

At first read that was quite interesting Dave, thanks. Ill re-read it and digest it some more.

Thanks again Mate.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Dave,
I have worked with people whom you term "sociopathic".The term psychopath was used in day to day discussions here rather than sociopath.
It was my understanding that behaviour difficulties in sociopathy usually emerge during childhood -----which doesnt at all seem to match what we know of Severin Klosowski.
For example,his conduct was noted by Rappaport as being beyond reproach,and he knew him from the age of 15 to 20 ie during the whole of his 5 year apprenticeship,about which he wrote that Severin had "studied with zeal the science of surgery".Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by the medical practioners at The Praga hospital in Warsaw where he did the short practical course and by the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.He even helped them nurse their child better from a worrying illness. In other words ,assuming him to have been "sociopathic" the "manifestation" of such behaviour seems to have begun around the time of his bigamous marriage to Lucy Baderski [Oct.1889]----mind he had apparently married a woman in Poland,had had two children with her and then abandoned her when he came to England! She even came over from Poland accompanied by their two children and confonted him when he was married to Lucy Baderski.She was apparently sent packing but Lucy remembered the incident well.Later, when he "married" Annie Chapman-1893/4, he had no sooner settled in with her than he proposed she should be prepared to live in a "menage a trois" with a young woman he had recently met and taken a fancy to.Annie seems to have cottoned on to him at this point because she gave him short shrift ,dumped him and never saw him again.
And ofcourse ,prior to this, he was clearly quite brutal to Lucy Baderski in New Jersey or she would not have fled from him in fear.
But there seems to be no evidence of childhood/adolescent behaviour disorder.Can I have your opinion on this?
Thanks

Norma

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,
I have worked with people whom you term "sociopathic".The term psychopath was used in day to day discussions here rather than sociopath.
It was my understanding that behaviour difficulties in sociopathy usually emerge during childhood -----which doesnt at all seem to match what we know of Severin Klosowski.
For example,his conduct was noted by Rappaport as being beyond reproach,and he knew him from the age of 15 to 20 ie during the whole of his 5 year apprenticeship,about which he wrote that Severin had "studied with zeal the science of surgery".Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by the medical practioners at The Praga hospital in Warsaw where he did the short practical course and by the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.He even helped them nurse their child better from a worrying illness. In other words ,assuming him to have been "sociopathic" the "manifestation" of such behaviour seems to have begun around the time of his bigamous marriage to Lucy Baderski [Oct.1889]----mind he had apparently married a woman in Poland,had had two children with her and then abandoned her when he came to England! She even came over from Poland accompanied by their two children and confonted him when he was married to Lucy Baderski.She was apparently sent packing but Lucy remembered the incident well.Later, when he "married" Annie Chapman-1893/4, he had no sooner settled in with her than he proposed she should be prepared to live in a "menage a trois" with a young woman he had recently met and taken a fancy to.Annie seems to have cottoned on to him at this point because she gave him short shrift ,dumped him and never saw him again.
And ofcourse ,prior to this, he was clearly quite brutal to Lucy Baderski in New Jersey or she would not have fled from him in fear.
But there seems to be no evidence of childhood/adolescent behaviour disorder.Can I have your opinion on this?
Thanks

Norma

The statistical data points that way in modern western culture. Severin was neither modern or western however. Additionally we have very little to reference in terms of his childhood. He was apprenticed at 15. This could well be a case where socially approved putlets for behaviors was aquired early in life. We have scant data to work from. Both his leaving Praga for the russian army, and his abandoning his polish wife seem to indicate the process was in motion at the time of immigration. The only portion of Severin's life to appear stable is his study of medicine. It could easily be that every coping mechanism known to young Severin was geared that way. The certificates he had at arrest were in fact "trophies" from the only time Severin had appeared normal. Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Similar praise for his behaviour and attitude was made by ... the Radans after he had stayed with them for five months in 1887.

We don't know that he stayed with the Radins in 1887, Nats. He might have been there from July 1888, for all we know, and it would still fit with the known facts.

You're right in pointing out that Klosowski helped nurse Ethel's sick child, but that doesn't quite count as "praise for his behaviour and attitude", although I have no reason to doubt that Severin did a splendid job.

[perrymason]

Forgive what may be a simple question regarding the convictions, but was there any major difference in the way he poisoned the two women? Was the earlier one more grievously afflicted while alive... is what I'm really asking.

Davids mentioning his normalcy as relates to his medical interests piqued the interest...just curious if we are seeing experiments in the form of murders.

Thanks for any help.
Best regards.

[Natalie Severn]

Forgive what may be a simple question regarding the convictions, but was there any major difference in the way he poisoned the two women? Was the earlier one more grievously afflicted while alive... is what I'm really asking.

Davids mentioning his normalcy as relates to his medical interests piqued the interest...just curious if we are seeing experiments in the form of murders.

Thanks for any help.
Best regards.

No.He chose arsenic in the three cases we know about---apparently because it didnt arouse suspicion.He attended to the women daily needs.

Cheers Mike

[Natalie Severn]

Sam,
I think you are mistaken.In order for Severin Klosowski to be included in the 1888 Post Office Directory HE HAD to be living at the address by December 2nd of the previous year----ie before December 2nd 1887.These were the regulations.So he was in England, living with the Radans by, at latest,2nd December 1887- give or take a week or two.Certainly before the close of the year 1887.



Dave ,
Thanks for that info,



Mike,
All three women suffered the same deaths.In each case he stood to gain nothing in financial terms from their deaths.Their families or friends, as well as Severin ,helped look after them.