Klosowski's surgical experience

[protohistorian]

Maybe if hookers started showing up with shruken heads?

I am sorry I assed around on that last post Sam The Polish medical system of the 19th century was modeled on the English one with a delay of between 10 and 20 years. Medicine appears to advance faster in England because superstitution and popular resentment were less severe. I believe the analog is accurate in so far as the medical field is concerned. Poland at the time was a quite literate society so many would have primary education, secondary would be contigent on factors like financing, availablity, percieved need, a whole host of things that factor into modern educational systems when compulsory education ends.

[Natalie Severn]

Did they take on pupils who'd only attended a primary school, though, Nats?

I'd be very wary of making comparisons with the British system of medical training. To take a deliberate extreme for the purpose of illustration, would we be having this discussion if Klosowski had spent 6 years studying "with zeal" the art of voodoo in Port-au-Prince?

That is just ridiculous Sam.Would you rate Marie Curie in the same way? Or Tolstoy or other leading Eastern European figures? Warsaw was a lot more advanced than Wales in 1888 actually!

.

Regarding primary schools etc .The term after the 1870 Act was "Elementary School "and in those days most pupils in the UK left Elementary School at 12. So the answer is yes.The statutary school leaving age in the UK was 12 years after the 1870 and later raised to 14.It was still 14 in the 1950"s then raised to 15.
The only way a surgeon got to be a surgeon here was by leaving school at about 14 years and ten months-just before the 15th birthday and being "apprenticed for 5 years" first of all [usually] to a local doctor---in a village ,a town whatever.THEN the student moved on to do either the 6 month hospital course or the 12 month hospital course usually in a city.

[Natalie Severn]

Sam I started a thread on Praga and the army, between you and nats you have done a remarkable job bringing me up to speed Thank You very much. Would Klosowski have gotten feedback through the hospital that he was no longer welcome?

Thanks Protohistorian!

[Sam Flynn]

The Praga Hospital had a sterling reputation in Warsaw.

Indeed, Nats - but Barts, St Mary's or The London it was arguably not. Besides, the needs of medical establishments are many and varied - it doesn't therefore follow that the course (four months long, for goodness' sake) of "Practical Surgery" was anything more sophisticated than what you might expect at your local branch of St John's or the Red Cross.

Even Swolen ,where Chapman served his apprenticeship was not how you depicted it ,Sam,be honest ,with a single shed and one or two houses etc in that photo you posted.

I think that was Tymienica, Nats, where Klosowski lived during his apprenticeship.

Whatever Zwolen was, it was certainly a "village" according to Rappaport's own title, and had a population in the (very) low thousands in the late 19th Century.

You keep harking on about cupping leeches etc and I know all that,but such 5 year apprenticeships were exactly like that here.

Were blood-letting, cupping and leeches still on the surgical (or apothecarial) curriculum in late 19th-century Britain?

but an apprentice always assisted the local doctor much much more than just that.

Would a local doctor in a village in Poland have seen that many "operations" anyway, and of those how many would he have delegated to an apprentice? I can well imagine Rappaport's clients having nasty accidents with wood-axes that required stitching, and he might have allowed his zealous apprentice to suture a few such wounds, but Zwolen was hardly likely to offer much in the way of broad-based training.

You misunderstand me, in any case, Nats. I'm certainly not having a pop at 19th Century Poland - that's nowhere near the agenda. I'm just interested in the sort of training that the likes of Klosowski would have received.

[Sam Flynn]

That is just ridiculous Sam.

No, it isn't, Nats. I stated clearly that I was taking an extreme example, and gave my purpose for doing it.

I was hoping you'd read it as intended, and project a continuum from voodoo in Haiti on the one hand, via leeching and cupping in Zwolen and a 4-month course in "Practical Surgery" in Poland, to (say) an undergraduate enrolled on a medical degree at a London teaching hospital on the other.

My intention was an exercise in perspective, not "ridiculousness".

Would you rate Marie Curie in the same way? Or Tolstoy or other leading Eastern European figures?

Please see my previous post. Curie and Tolstoy have nothing to do with it - neither have Wales and Warsaw, for that matter. I'm interested only in the sort of training Klosowski might have received and, whatever he was, he was neither Curie nor Tolstoy... nor even Paderewski or David Lloyd-George

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Sam,
I simply do not accept your view about Klosowski"s training.
The form it took tallies exactly with what went on up until the mid to last quarter of the 19th century in the UK. As Prothistorian"s research indicates, Polish medical training was modelled on the British model, though some ten to twenty years behind it.
I repeat,our medical training here consisted of a FIVE YEAR APPRENTICESHIP to a local doctor from the age of 15 years in a village/town or city, followed by a six to twelve month "practical course" working in a Hospital.This is exactly what Chapman/ Klosowski had undergone except that his hospital short course training began in October 1886 and ended on 23rd February 1887 making it five months,not six months.At this point in England you could apply for your Apothecary Licentiate but if you wished to go on with your surgical training,then you had to stay at the hospital for a further six months after which you could apply to be a [junior] member of the Royal College of Surgeons.In the 1870"s in England there was an overhaul of every aspect of Education so yes ,by the 1870"s there were probably a number of adjustments in what constituted a full surgical training----but then I have never argued that he was a "fully trained" surgeon Sam. I do believe that in his work as an "apprentice" to Rappaport he would have attended a number of difficult confinements, some resulting in death.This would have been "par for the course" as they say-and quite obviously the case .Moreover I believe such experience may well have begun to trigger some strange notions about women"s reproductive organs that he may have decided needed further "investigation".

Where does your research come from,Sam, that says it was not Swollen where he was apprenticed or are you simply saying that that was where he "lodged" when he was apprenticed in Swollen?

The adoption of the Sewer and Gas Plant system in Warsaw and much of the rest of Poland, were also modelled on those of London ,like the medical schools .The Swewrage and Gas systems were introduced in the 1870"s.
Britain may have led the way but others soon followed it,as was the case with much of Europe.



Best

[Natalie Severn]

I am sorry I assed around on that last post Sam The Polish medical system of the 19th century was modeled on the English one with a delay of between 10 and 20 years. Medicine appears to advance faster in England because superstitution and popular resentment were less severe. I believe the analog is accurate in so far as the medical field is concerned. Poland at the time was a quite literate society so many would have primary education, secondary would be contigent on factors like financing, availablity, percieved need, a whole host of things that factor into modern educational systems when compulsory education ends.

Many Thanks for this information PH.Can I ask you where you obtained this it? It matches my own research in that the overhaul of our entire educational system took place in the late 1860"s [1868-1869] culminating in the Education Act of 1870 and other acts that followed in the 1870"s concerning higher and further education ,if I remember correctly .But I would like to know where there is more information on surgical training in the UK specifically .
Best Wishes
Nats

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam, I simply do not accept your view about Klosowski"s training.

Primary school -> apprenticeship in a village -> 4 months' course in "Practical Surgery" in Warsaw. Can I be helped if "Lister" or "Gull" do not spring immediately to mind, but my paramedic great-grandfather somehow does?

Where does your research come from,Sam, that says it was not Swollen where he was apprenticed or are you simply saying that that was where he "lodged" when he was apprenticed in Swollen?

Reference 5, on the first page of this thread, has "Oltetski" stating that Klosowski lived in "Tymenitsa" [sic. - Tymienica] at the time of his apprenticeship with Rappaport. The latter was certainly based in the village of Zwolen, but Klosowski evidently lodged in the nearby village of Tymienica (about 7 or 8 miles south of Zwolen) at that time.

[Sam Flynn]

The adoption of the Sewer and Gas Plant system in Warsaw and much of the rest of Poland, were also modelled on those of London ,like the medical schools .The Swewrage and Gas systems were introduced in the 1870"s.
Britain may have led the way but others soon followed it,as was the case with much of Europe.

I'm interested - specifically - in the level of surgical experience and education that Klosowski would have been exposed to. Discussing "periphera" (is that a word? it is now) about Poland, while welcome and interesting in itself, isn't germane to the matter in hand.

As a parallel, I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that, because London had some of the finest teaching hospitals in the world, every English nurse or first-aider who learned how to apply a bandage or lance a boil must have received in-depth "surgical" training in order to do so. On the contrary, their surgical training would have been of an eminently "practical" nature - and I have no reason to believe that Klosowski's "practical surgery" course (all 4 months of it) would have been any different.

[protohistorian]

Many Thanks for this information PH.Can I ask you where you obtained this it? It matches my own research in that the overhaul of our entire educational system took place in the late 1860"s [1868-1869] culminating in the Education Act of 1870 and other acts that followed in the 1870"s concerning higher and further education ,if I remember correctly .But I would like to know where there is more information on surgical training in the UK specifically .
Best Wishes
Nats

No singular source there are two guven in an earlier thread, dealing with victorian demons and the jewish class in Poland. Victoran Demons, full citation in earlier response. Btween the two I mention you get the jist. Sorry, I've turned them in and as this is a side project, did not keep a running bibliography.

[protohistorian]

I'm interested - specifically - in the level of surgical experience and education that Klosowski would have been exposed to. Throwing up "periphera" (is that a word? it is now) about Poland, while welcome and interesting in itself, isn't germane to the discussion.

As a parallel, I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that, because London had some of the finest teaching hospitals in the world, every English nurse or first-aider who learned how to apply a bandage or lance a boil must have received in-depth "surgical" training in order to do so. On the contrary, their surgical training would have been of an eminently "practical" nature - and I have no reason to believe that Klosowski's "practical surgery" course (all 4 months of it) would have been any different.

The book on Polish Jews has some interesting tie ins to the English system. It spends two chapters discussing a cultural phenomena described as "the Jewish Enlightenment" in Poland. The discourse covers a surge of Jews to the Universities in the 1870's and 80's, as well as their efforts to integrate into the larger cultural context of Poland using several European countries as models for emerging elements within Poland. Hope this helps Nats.

[protohistorian]

Primary school -> apprenticeship in a village -> 4 months' course in "Practical Surgery" in Warsaw. Can I be helped if "Lister" or "Gull" do not spring immediately to mind, but my paramedic great-grandfather somehow does?Reference 5, on the first page of this thread, has "Oltetski" stating that Klosowski lived in "Tymenitsa" [sic. - Tymienica] at the time of his apprenticeship with Rappaport. The latter was certainly based in the village of Zwolen, but Klosowski evidently lodged in the nearby village of Tymienica (about 7 or 8 miles south of Zwolen) at that time.

It occurs to me that niether hia apprenticeship, nor his 4 mo's of practical surgery would have yielded much in the way of familiarirty with deep tissue or viceral organs. The fascination of Jack with visceral organs and tissues wrapped in serous membranes, could be seen in the light of unstructured student, learning on his own. If one were not told that all visceral organs have serous sheaths, when one finally became exposed to visceral organs, that would be a fascinating "discovery". It might even stimulate further experimentation. In this context on could see the Kelly crime scene as the 1880's equivelent of purchasing Grays anatomy. The text book being laid well and truly fully open. To a meglomaniac, this would be the pinnacle of his, "research", and justify both the extreme violence within the Kelly scene as well as the abandonement of "ripping's". Hey, it is a thought anyhow.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Dave - but, again we're not talking about a full-on university education in the case of Klosowski. We're talking about a primary education in a small village, a teenage apprenticeship to a small-town doctor, leading to a four-month course in practical surgery at a Warsaw hospital.

[Sam Flynn]

It occurs to me that niether hia apprenticeship, nor his 4 mo's of practical surgery would have yielded much in the way of familiarirty with deep tissue or viceral organs.

Indeed, Dave. Let's see what we can cram into 4 months "practical surgery"...

MONTH ONE

Week 1 - introductions (enrollment, fire drills and timetables)
Week 2 - basic principles (gross anatomy, basic physiology)
Week 3 - herbs, tinctures, poultices
Week 4 - revision and practical

MONTH TWO

Week 1 - leeching and cupping (advanced)
Week 2 - lancing boils and carbuncles
Week 3 - teeth pulling
Week 4 - revision and practical

MONTH THREE

Week 1 - examination on Months One and Two
Week 2 - Christmas (or Hanukkah, as is your preference)
Week 3 - dressing and cleaning wounds (with Prof. Fester)
Week 4 - revision and practical

MONTH FOUR

Week 1 - skeletal anatomy and bone setting
Week 2 - basic amputation techniques
Week 3 - revision and practical
Week 4 - final exam


Of course, I'm making that up - the curriculum is sadly not available to me - but, in all honesty, what else could one fit into such a short space of time? Even with the topics I've (half-jokingly) suggested, it's still rather ambitious - either that, or a superficial, whistle-stop tour.

[protohistorian]

Thanks, Dave - but, again we're not talking about a full-on university education in the case of Klosowski. We're talking about a primary education in a small village, a teenage apprenticeship to a small-town doctor, leading to a four-month course in practical surgery at a Warsaw hospital.

That makes it fit even better. In a traditional University education, he would have been exposed to the viscera and it's characteristics, there would be no need to experiment. It is precisely his limited exposure coupled with meglomania, that lead him to believe that through experimentation he could achieve an accurate understanding. See it from his mind, and the subsequent experimentation in wounds follows a trejectory that he believed would make him a "doctor", not in our sense but in his sense of be able to exert action on a human body.