Klosowski's surgical experience

[Sam Flynn]

saw it on john's edit. If that is what it means, go for it, it sounds so much more unpleasant.

Thanks, Dave. In honour of Klosowski, I promise to drink only surgical spirit - diluted, of course, pretty raw, and with a low proof-rating

[protohistorian]

Thanks, Dave. In honour of Klosowski, I promise to drink only surgical spirit - diluted, of course, pretty raw, and with a low proof-rating

just do not chase it with dead hiikers. Oh, and blah,blah,blah, something medical about a victorian nutjob. I'l do that until Friday so I can say I helped.

[protohistorian]

victorian medicine and poland

I have been doing some background research and have found something interesting reagarding cultural movements and their implications regarding the practice of medicine. Bear in mind Poland was decades behind England in many regards. It was not until the middle of the 19th century in England that Midwives were regulated and an attempt was made to bring them into the fold of medical practioners. Causally, there was a period of rather intense vitriol between "medical professionals" and women as a whole. This was an unintended and naturally occuring phenomena, in many ways a form of the science v. superstition debate. I am efforting a poland specific data set, but in the interim I believe it would be safe to say that this would have been a condition similar to the one encountered by Chapman in his pursuit of medicine. The period of the 1870's and 80's in Poland corresponds to a surge in jewish intellectuallism. University records show 80 per cent of students at major universities in Poland were Jewish at that time. The net effect on a misanthropic person,of course would be an anti female anti semitic outlook. Females would be hated by virtue of the vitriolic relationship with medico's, and Jews by a misinterpretation of their numbers at school. Sources The Emancipation of the Jews in Poland 1780-1870 by Eisenbach and Victorian Demons by Andrew Smith.

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Dave,

Some interesting info. Keep in mind Severin Klosowski was not a Jew.

Roy

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,

Some interesting info. Keep in mind Severin Klosowski was not a Jew.

Roy

No. He was R.C. in Poland between 1830 and 1890 the two were at volent lagerheads. It goes towards what the state of inderstanding of young George might have been.

[Sam Flynn]

Some interesting info. Keep in mind Severin Klosowski was not a Jew.

True, but even if he were not Jewish himself (and I wouldn't put it past him to have lied about that), he was evidently in close contact with Jewish medical types - and their patients - throughout his 'prentice years.

[protohistorian]

True, but even if he were not Jewish himself (and I wouldn't put it past him to have lied about that), he was evidently in close contact with Jewish medical types - and their patients - throughout his 'prentice years.

Even beyond that it is a safe assumption that Klosowski's interpretation of Jews would be negative. People who have the aptitude for studying medicine do better than delusional types who "want" to be doctors. I am thinking Chapman would have been at or near the bottom of the class. Oh and incidently, doesn't a passive aggressive anti semitism make sense of the GSG.

[protohistorian]

A big help. thanks....sure hope you didn't think I was the kind of guy goin around saying rat arsed to strangers?

Does anyone know the state of records in the Praga hospital?

[protohistorian]

Does anyone know the state of records in the Praga hospital?

Correction Adams does not state Chapman had a certificate to be a junior surgeon, he states that he had filled the position of assistant surgeon at the Praga hospital. A felscher is a skill set equivelent to barber surgeon. Chapman left the trajectory to more glorious medical duties "suddenly" and enlisted in the russian army at Warsaw. It is not unfair to view Chapmans medical "career" as lofty dreams, followed by failure and the rapid onset of reality.

[Sam Flynn]

Even beyond that it is a safe assumption that Klosowski's interpretation of Jews would be negative.

I don't think that's a safe assumption at all, Dave. He spoke Yiddish, he was apprenticed to a Jewish village surgeon, he lived (and briefly studied) in a Jewish district of Warsaw, he lodged with, and worked for, Jews when he came to London - he even nursed a Jewish baby while he was there.

That doesn't strike me as negative behaviour, by any stretch of the imagination.

[Sam Flynn]

It is not unfair to view Chapmans medical "career" as lofty dreams, followed by failure and the rapid onset of reality.

There is nothing in Klosowski's biography that suggests he wanted to be anything loftier than a feldscher - despite his tendency to brag and dissemble about other things, he's not on record as having lied about that. One would think that a man like Klosowski, if he indeed suffered from a "failed doctor" complex, would have gone about boasting of medical qualifications he never had. But he never did.

[Natalie Severn]

Even beyond that it is a safe assumption that Klosowski's interpretation of Jews would be negative. People who have the aptitude for studying medicine do better than delusional types who "want" to be doctors. I am thinking Chapman would have been at or near the bottom of the class. Oh and incidently, doesn't a passive aggressive anti semitism make sense of the GSG.

Rappaport rated him actually.The reference from Rappaport after the five year apprenticeship with him finished was very good.

[protohistorian]

I don't think that's a safe assumption at all, Dave. He spoke Yiddish, he was apprenticed to a Jewish village surgeon, he lived (and briefly studied) in a Jewish district of Warsaw, he lodged with, and worked for, Jews when he came to London - he even nursed a Jewish baby while he was there.

That doesn't strike me as negative behaviour, by any stretch of the imagination.

If he percieved being a Jew as a step up, he would act like/associate with Jews. If he percieved Oprah as a step up, he would claim to be black and female. John mentioned he wrote a small biography, do you have a copy? Adams has been very helpful. I am coalescing this into a paper, how do I submit to casebook? This guy did at least some of the c5.

[protohistorian]

Rappaport rated him actually.The reference from Rappaport after the five year apprenticeship with him finished was very good.

Adams says all his mentors did. One of the things in his possession was a letter from a district magistrate in Poland declaring he had never committed any crime. I don't know anyone who has a note from the government. Probably because I associate with criminals.

[Sam Flynn]

Rappaport rated him actually.The reference from Rappaport after the five year apprenticeship with him finished was very good.

Such is the nature of references, Nats - although I don't doubt that Klosowski gave good service as an apprentice. Indeed, his other referees seemed to confirm this.

The crux of the matter is what that "good service" actually entailed. The only - emphasise, ONLY - specifics we have is that Klosowski had experience at cupping and leeching.